Draft Hull Table

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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby Crucis on Tue 09 Apr 2013 16:21

Dawn Falcon wrote:
Crucis wrote:C. I am not a fan of the prototyping rules.


So push out the hulls a bit further :P

Honestly, there does seem to be a clump at TL2-6, which is why some types like CL won't be built much if you don't need to prototype. Remember, if we're not following the cannon history, we don't need to use quite the same tech progression either, and I'd argue for pushing some items back and forward too.



Replied in a PM to you (and Alexei).
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 09 Apr 2013 21:23

I replied more fully via PM, but in general tems if using something similar to the April 7 hull table, I would consider bumping BB's and larger up a TL, to lessen the clump a bit.
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby Crucis on Wed 10 Apr 2013 22:44

Crucis wrote:As for the 22 HS hull, I'm not overly fond of it either. The difference between a 15 HS ship and a 22 hs ship is very minimal, and doesn't seem worth the trouble of the screwy fraction. The one flipside, I actually found the "Sloop" and "Cutter" names rather interesting. ;)


I want to take a step back and look at the 22 hs hull type again. I'll admit that even now, I'm not overly fond of it for the above mentioned reasons. However, I can think of one reason why it might be worth keeping, though it may be too much of a corner case.

At the start (TL2), SY's have a build rate of 14 HS/month, which is not enough to build a 15 HS or 22 HS ship in a month. So, some might prefer to build a 22 hs ship in 2 months rather than a 15 hs ship. or build a 14 hs hull in a single month. (Or build a 28 hs ship in 2 ...)

Of course, at TL3, the build rate increases to 16 HS/month, at which time you can build the 15 HS ship in one month, or a full 30 hs ship in 2. Or yes, a 22 hs ship in 2 months.

And at TL6, with a build rate of 22 hs/month, you could eventually build a 22 HS ship in a single month.

The thing is that I don't think that you'd see any empire building 15 hs and 22 hs ships at the same time. it almost looks like the value of one vs the other may be very much related to what the build rate of the empire is at a given time.

So, while the 3/4 I/MP isn't pretty, a 22 hs hull type looks to have some value in this mix when it comes to build rates at the low end of the scale. This seems to be much less of an issue at the higher end of the scale, when one is taking many months to build a ship.

Of course, I suppose that one could argue that this same build rate logic could apply to a type smaller than 15 hs, but I'm really wary of including the next smaller type which would have to be at 10 hs, with a I/MP of 1/3. Also, the table would really look screwy if the I/MP progression was 1/3, 1/2, 3/4, 1, since clearly one would think that the I/MP between 1/2 and 1 should be 2/3 rather than 3/4. But a 2/3 I/MP requires a size of 20 hs, rather than 22 hs. Furthermore, I just don't think that hull sizes of 10 or below represent fully function ships. There's just not enough room in there for any sort of balance, and it seems that such tiny ships are often an abuse of the system... at least to me.

However, this leaves me in a quandary. I can see some justification for a hull size between 15 and 30 hs, but it's just an uncomfortable fit, at least for my sensibilities... OTOH, I'm sort of itching to squeeze a Sloop and/or Cutter type into the hull table... ;)
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Thu 11 Apr 2013 05:46

The problem I see is finding a TL where a 22 HS ship is a worthwhile build. For player races, at TL 2 perhaps, as both 15 and 22 HS designs take 2 months to build. By TL 6, I'm not so sure, as even though you can build them in a single month, they have pretty much outlived their usefulness as combat platforms. At that point the 22 HS ships are best used as survey units and it would be cheaper to refit any existing units rather than build new ones.

OTOH, HT1 NPR's might consider a 22 HS design as it's close to the top end of their 2 month build rate, and single month 12 HS ships are little more than pickets which would be of limited use to a race lacking knowledge of wp's.
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby tmul4050 on Mon 29 Apr 2013 03:59

Is there a table of merchant vessels or is it base on the warship table?
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby tmul4050 on Mon 29 Apr 2013 04:04

Also any idea on small craft. Impression I got was that they are going to be different.
I hope fighters are more effective then they have become. Also what about gunboats?
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby Crucis on Mon 29 Apr 2013 04:32

tmul4050 wrote:Also any idea on small craft. Impression I got was that they are going to be different.
I hope fighters are more effective than they have become. Also what about gunboats?


Fighters will be better in some ways, not so much in others, but after you see the changes, I'd like to think that you'll think that they're more effective.

Gunboats are going to see some drastic changes. They won't be as large or carry quite as much ordnance as the ISW4 style of GB, but they should be much harder to detect and more difficult to kill. So on the whole, I think that they'll actually be better, if one measures the quality of the craft by how well it can deliver its ordnance to its targets.




tmul4050 wrote:Is there a table of merchant vessels or is it base on the warship table?


Yes, FT's are just based on the warship table. I really should get around to presenting the final draft of the Hull Table, given that to the best of my knowledge, it's been finalized.
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby Crucis on Mon 29 Apr 2013 14:46

Alright, folks, this is the current state of the Hull Table.



Hull Type [FT#]Tech LevelSizeEngine Power (I/MP)
Warship Hulls
CT [1]IND-2 or TL111-151/2
FG [2]IND-2 or TL116-301
DD [3]TL131-451-1/2
CL [4]TL246-602
CA [5]TL361-752-1/2
BC [6]TL476-903
BB [7]TL691-1204
DN [8]TL8121-1505
SD [9]TL10151-1806
MT [10]TL12181-2408
SMT [11]TL14241-30010
Hull TypeTech LevelSizeEngine Power (I/MP)
Carrier Hulls
CVETL8 ?31-451-1/2
CVLTL8 ?46-602
CVS (Strike Carrier)TL9 ?61-752-1/2
CVTL9 ?76-903
CVATL10 ?91-1204
CVH (Heavy Carrier)TL12 ?121-1505
Hull TypeTech LevelSizeEngine Power (I/MP)
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Mon 29 Apr 2013 20:15

I think that one of the key breakthroughs when reaching TL1 is the ability to put more than a single engine system in an individual engine room. Thus if there are IND-2 hulls I would prefer them to be both CT and FG.
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Re: Draft Hull Table

Postby tmul4050 on Tue 30 Apr 2013 18:36

Are the differing hulls speed limits the same (eight for a corvette, seven for a destroyer and so on)? Maybe speed limits should be limited by tech level.
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