Hot Jupiters

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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby Cralis on Sat 14 Jul 2012 02:32

procyon wrote:
Cralis wrote:Actually, quite a bit of difference. The hotter the planet is the less likely it has noble gases, and it will have a different atmospheric composition/blend. They are almost always larger, as well (gravity difference). If you were a gaseous race it would be like the difference (for humans) between a T and ST.


In that noble gases are non reactive in almost all situations the presence or non presence has little effect. If you were to change the concentration of argon in the air you breath to 50 times its normal level, or get rid of it, you would be fine. In fact high end scuba 'air' is helium/O2 mix to prevent nitrogen narcosis - simply because the helium is a noble gas and doesn't react in the bloodstream.


That isn't the point. The temperature of the accretion disk typically determines the type of material in it. That is why you have heavy metals in close and noble gases around the outside of the disk. Your planets will form from the matter in the region of the disk they are at.

And for the gravity issue - they are floaters. They are essentially stuck at neutral bouyancy. Gravity wouldn't matter, they just bob to where they have equal displacement. And the temp would mean nothing to them. The description mentions they dive deep into the gas giants to mine resources. A few miles down into the atmosphere of a gas giant and Jupiter vs a HJ becomes a moot point. The pressure would be enormous and the temp would be in the hundreds of degrees C. Same for an Ice planet. Go down a few miles and the pressure and temps would be extreme also.


Gravity and temperature will have a lot to do with how they start, how big they are, what compounds makeup their DNA, etc. It all matters. A gaseous race from a heavier planet will be able to withstand higher temps and pressures than one from a lighter planet. That is why there is a HI for gas giants for gaseous races.

Vandervecken wrote:The one scenario I kinda like is the Europa-ish scenario, where a far Jovian migrates into the goldilocks zone and a near-Europa, (Already with Life) warms up and the seas open up. Still some radiation problems at the surface, but there is a chance albeit a fraction of a fraction, of a fraction, of a underwater intelligence, possibly a civilization developing.


Sounds like a neat start. In the proper setting a moon could support life. Just park it far enough out to avoid the worst of the radiation belts of the gas giant, and give it an atmosphere to damp down the rest. Then a nearby star to heat it. It may have problems if tidelocked to the gas giant, so make sure it isn't...


Another possibility would be a metal-rich moon, as it would form its own magnetic fields to protect it. If the gas giant is big enough, while it is spiraling into the inner system perhaps it captures one or two of the rocky planets as moons? Think Earth captured by a Super-Jovian on its way into the inner system.
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby procyon on Sat 14 Jul 2012 03:39

Cralis wrote:That isn't the point. The temperature of the accretion disk typically determines the type of material in it. That is why you have heavy metals in close and noble gases around the outside of the disk. Your planets will form from the matter in the region of the disk they are at.


That almosts sounds like you are giving the reason why a HJ is no different than a normal Jupiter. And is what I have been pointing at.

The gas giant is going to be a gas giant. It won't have started as a HJ. It will either have formed as an 'Ice' planet or 'normal' gas giant. Its composition will be determined by how far out it formed. Not how far in it migrated.


Cralis wrote:Gravity and temperature will have a lot to do with how they start, how big they are, what compounds makeup their DNA, etc. It all matters. A gaseous race from a heavier planet will be able to withstand higher temps and pressures than one from a lighter planet. That is why there is a HI for gas giants for gaseous races.


They need a hab index, as not all G planets will have equal composition. But if there are gas races, they will have a much wider ability to adapt. If a given race adapted at a certain pressure and temp on a certain planet - it will simply migrate to the depth of the new gas giant that has an equal pressure/temp. A T race has to hope surface conditions match close to what it wants - or it is out of luck. A gas race will have nearly limitless depths of atmosphere to descend into looking for the pressure match.

And an 'Ice' race that formed 200 miles deep in the atmosphere of a 'Neptune', may find the same temp and pressure about 180 miles deep on a 'Jupiter'. It would all have a lot to do with the depth they find 'comfortable'. Thinking in terms of a 'surface temp and pressure' for a gas race just doesn't work.

Composition would be everything. If it isn't toxic, and could sustain them, they will likely be able to find a depth that will match their 'home'.
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 14 Jul 2012 05:37

Having exotic gas/ice loving life forms greatly complicates the game. Even in traditional sci fi how often do you see indigenous sentient life forms on non rocky worlds?. On the other hand habitable moons orbiting gas giants is quite common in sci fi. Call it the "Forrest moon of Endor" effect.
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby Cralis on Sat 14 Jul 2012 11:37

procyon wrote:
Cralis wrote:That isn't the point. The temperature of the accretion disk typically determines the type of material in it. That is why you have heavy metals in close and noble gases around the outside of the disk. Your planets will form from the matter in the region of the disk they are at.


That almosts sounds like you are giving the reason why a HJ is no different than a normal Jupiter. And is what I have been pointing at.

The gas giant is going to be a gas giant. It won't have started as a HJ. It will either have formed as an 'Ice' planet or 'normal' gas giant. Its composition will be determined by how far out it formed. Not how far in it migrated.


Yes, pretty much. Except I haven't seen any star systems that suggest a Neptune "migrated" into the inner system. Only the equivalent of Type-G from the game.

Cralis wrote:Gravity and temperature will have a lot to do with how they start, how big they are, what compounds makeup their DNA, etc. It all matters. A gaseous race from a heavier planet will be able to withstand higher temps and pressures than one from a lighter planet. That is why there is a HI for gas giants for gaseous races.


They need a hab index, as not all G planets will have equal composition. But if there are gas races, they will have a much wider ability to adapt. If a given race adapted at a certain pressure and temp on a certain planet - it will simply migrate to the depth of the new gas giant that has an equal pressure/temp. A T race has to hope surface conditions match close to what it wants - or it is out of luck. A gas race will have nearly limitless depths of atmosphere to descend into looking for the pressure match.


I think that a gaseous race's need to "decend" or "ascent" to different levels will have a number of effects:

1. availability of resources - they may not be where your floaters can best survive, which would mean a requirement for life support equipment (whatever that may be)

2. affect "space" - while this is an un-qualified value (since we have no concept, it would be more than pure gasbag-to-gasbag floating), but if you have to descend you may have less available area and your population shrinks

3. another thing I thought about, is that temperature may adversely affect a floater's ability to maintain neutral buoyancy and/or quickly change depths. For that matter. it may also change the amount of wind in the atmosphere making it harder for the floaters. This would especially be the case where a gas giant moves CLOSER to a planet so one side is much hotter than the other.

4. if the floaters cannot ascend high enough (due to a lower pressure atmosphere), they may have trouble gaining access to space. This would require them to build their ships deeper into the atmosphere, which may cause problems.

5. Descending will also affect how much sunlight the race gets. It is possible for them to be dependent upon it if they were floaters in the highest reaches of their atmosphere on the homeworld. Certainly flora and fawna could depend on it.

And I'm sure, given time, I can think of many more reasons.

And an 'Ice' race that formed 200 miles deep in the atmosphere of a 'Neptune', may find the same temp and pressure about 180 miles deep on a 'Jupiter'. It would all have a lot to do with the depth they find 'comfortable'. Thinking in terms of a 'surface temp and pressure' for a gas race just doesn't work.


I don't think it will be anywhere near that simple. For one, Type-I planets have a COMPLETELY different atmospheric composition. And I think you are overstating the "depth" because STARFIRE presumes that Type-I planets are much smaller than Type-G planets. This would affect more than just temperature - density of the atmosphere would affect buoyancy and ability to move, particle density could affect bodily functions, flora and fawna will be completely different, available resources will be different (no water ice on Type-G's, for example).

I think you are simplifying this waaaaaaay too much Procyon. Which is strangely unusual for you...
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby Vandervecken on Sat 14 Jul 2012 16:14

Hypthetical Floaters may also be affected by Magnetic Field strengths, needing just the right tolerance limits to become intelligent, then civilized.
Also inward migration of a Jovian might spell the doom of a race due to the mechanism of reproduction, where a race needs to upwell closer to the cloud surface to reproduce, but this is now not viable either to the reproducers or the progeny when it's world becomes a Hot Jupiter. So I'm fine with the official rules on HJ being different enough to be T/ST difference or worse; but would certainly play in a game where it was just a habitability Index difference. Neither extreme would bother me much, I'm leaning toward Cralis, but only because, in game terms, G.G. races have way to much territory to settle in the universe to begin with compared to us usually 2 dimensional thinkers on the rocky surfaces of Earth, hehehe.
Last edited by Vandervecken on Sun 15 Jul 2012 09:22, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby Vandervecken on Sat 14 Jul 2012 16:32

I look forward to what we find out about HJ in the next decade. (Well, I look forward to just about everything we find out about that deals with Stars, Planets, Black Holes, ...). Maybe soon, in time for 8th Edition, we'll have a better understanding of Jovian sub-surface mechanisms, and our Database on HJ will be large enough that we can compare the two to make a better guess as how to fit them in games such as Starfire. It's just cool to be alive and learn about these things. And less than a month before a new Mars lander gets its shot at landing. And Pluto and other places will get their looks in less than 3 years, A new Black Hole surveying telescope has just came online. and we have at least another year of data to get on transiting worlds from another device up there. Good Times, good times for both Astronomers and Gamers,indeed.

Note - And it could even be better if NASA got more funding, a lot better, but still not bad, yet.
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 14 Jul 2012 19:33

Given that Hot Neptunes tend to be less than 1 AU from a star it's hard to see how they don't migrate inwards.

As far as gas giant races being "floaters", I prefer to think of them as divers. They would dive deeper into the atmosphere to find resources such as food then return to the "surface" much like whales.
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 14 Jul 2012 20:01

The reason I use the term divers is the at extreme pressure you wind up with a supercritical fluid state rather than a gas. The pressure line would effectively be the surface of an ocean instead of a deep atmosphere.
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby Vandervecken on Sat 14 Jul 2012 23:23

To gain intelligence then civilization, I usually don't consider sessile creatures to be able to compete with mobile ones in the same biome for that ability. But a few Sci-Fic stories do make the case that it COULD happen. Although 1 of the stories (The Niven one) has the intelligence comming first, then something else happens in it's evolution that makes movement un-necessary, and over the millenia the intelligent race becomes sessile. So Divers may have a leg up (fin/tenticle/jet) on the floaters, or hover'ers.
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Re: Hot Jupiters

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sun 15 Jul 2012 04:45

Beyond the resource issue there is another question that bugs me for a species living deep in the atmosphere/ocean of a gas giant. Given the lack of solar radiation reaching the depths, would such a species have a concept of time? And without such a concept could sentience develop?
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