A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Discussions about Cosmic Starfire.

Moderators: SDS Members, SDS Owner

Forum rules
Cosmic Starfire is being designed by Fred Burton (aka 'Crucis'). Please direct all inquiries to him.

1. Nothing obscene.
2. No advertising or spamming.
3. No personal information. Mostly aimed at the posting of OTHER people's information.
4. No flame wars. We encourage debate, but it becomes a flame when insults fly and tempers flare.

Try to stick with the forum's topic. Threads that belong to another forum will be moved to that forum.

A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby Crucis on Fri 09 Nov 2012 12:39

I had a brainstorm last night on how to do habitability simply while retaining the T/ST split, without wrap-around, and maintaining a fairly strong modicum of balance. (I leveraged an idea that Matt Wadwell gave me that didn't work out into an idea that seems to work spectacularly well.) And since I've discussed habitability openly in the past, I thought that I'd share this idea with everyone....



First, as in Ultra, the ratio of T’s to ST’s would need to be 2 to 1. In ISF, this ratio is 4 to 1, hence a big source of the balance problems. Of course, perfect balance is attainable if the T/ST ratio is 1:1, or if one simply merges T's and ST's. But a 1:1 T/ST ratio simply creates too many ST planets, at least from the PoV of the Canon History. And some people would oppose a merging of T and ST types.

Secondly, the Type T planet’s HI is still the plain ol’ 1d10 (i.e. 1 to 10), but … BUT … the Type ST planet’s HI is 10 + 1d10/2 FRU (i.e. 11 to 15). (The math breakthrough here is that there are 10 HI points for T and 5 HI points for ST … the same 2 to 1 ratio as for the numbers of T and ST planets.) Thus, the overall HI scale is 1 to 15, with T’s covering 1-10 and ST’s covering 11-15.



From this point it's only a matter of setting the HD ranges for Benign and Harsh to get the ratio of Benigns to Harshes to Hostiles desired, and away you go. There will still be some balance issues near the extremes of 1 and 15, but because the rest of the scale is balanced, values near the T/ST boundary remain balanced. A T race with an HI of 9 will not have any fewer Benigns and Harshes than a T races with an HI of 5. And depending on the HD ranges, races shouldn't have too many balance issues, though the wider the HD ranges, the more difficult it will be, since you have to go farther away from each extreme (1 and 15) to guarantee that you don't lose any potential B's or Ha's off the end of the scale.

If you use HD ranges of 0-1 is Benign, an HD of 2-3 is Harsh, and an HD of 4 or greater is Hostile, you should somewhat minimize issues at the extremes. (And statistically, this means that generally speaking, 20% of T/ST’s should be Benign, 26% should be Harsh, and the remaining 54% should be Hostile.)


Comments? Flames? Whatever...
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby TerryTigre on Fri 09 Nov 2012 18:10

One option to give each race an even break regardless of initial HI, is to give races near the extreme a larger range.

Code: Select all
HI      1   2   3   4   5  6  7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15
1       B   B   B   H   H  H  H   O   O    O    O    O    O    O    O
2       B   B   B   H   H  H  H   O   O    O    O    O    O    O    O
3       H   B   B   B   H  H  H   O   O    O    O    O    O    O    O
4       H   H   B   B   B  H  H   O   O    O    O    O    O    O    O
5       O   H   H   B   B  B  H   H   O    O    O    O    O    O    O
6       O   O   H   H   B  B  B   H   H    O    O    O    O    O    O
etc
15      O   O   O   O   O  O  O   O   H    H    H    H    B    B    B
B = Benign
H = Harsh
O = Hostile



Thus every race gets 3 Benign, 4 Harsh and 8 Hostiles...
Last edited by TerryTigre on Fri 09 Nov 2012 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
Status: 26 types of tech system. Working on fleet tactics. Added b generation weapons, including G, Gb. Possible to give Ships Movement Orders. Working on SysGenV2
TerryTigre
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed 23 May 2012 01:11

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby Crucis on Fri 09 Nov 2012 18:13

Actually, Terry, this is an idea that I've considered and haven't dismissed. It's not realistic, but it is balancing without wrapping around.
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 09 Nov 2012 19:16

I can accept Terry's table. No player or potential NPR gets the short end of the stick.
Charles Rosenberg.

Alexei Timoshenko is the name of my protagonist in the fanfics, although I wish it could have been me.
AlexeiTimoshenko
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010 21:16
Location: Baltimore MD

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby Crucis on Fri 09 Nov 2012 19:28

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:I can accept Terry's table. No player or potential NPR gets the short end of the stick.



Alexei, it works from a game balancing PoV, but some people probably wouldn't like it because it's "not realistic".

I think that it's safe to say that on the topic of Habitability, it's simply not possible to provide for 100% balance and to be realistic at the same time. Even without allowing races to "go in the other direction away" from the edge of habitability, it's a fairly well balanced concept while being realistic. When one adds in the rest, it loses some realism but picks up the rest of the game balance. So I suppose that the concept that Terry pointed out (and of which I was fully aware, but just didn't bother to write up) could be treated as optional for those who prefer full balance over realism, or it could be ignored for people who prefer realism at the expense of a little bit of game balance.

Also, I'm not all that bothered if some NPR's get shafted a little. I'm more concerned about the player races. And for them, it'd be best to stick with HI values between 4 and 12. But for those who want to use the full range of HI values, then they could use the less realistic option.
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby TerryTigre on Fri 09 Nov 2012 20:00

Another thing:

If you want to make the difference between H and ST bigger, just use 11 + D10/2 for ST. This gives a 12-16 range, and means it will be harder for T races to colonize ST, and harder for ST to colonize T. For one thing, no T world would be benign to ST races and vice versa...

And if player races are limited to the 4-12 range, then at least the players would be balanced, which is a bit more important than all races being balanced...
Status: 26 types of tech system. Working on fleet tactics. Added b generation weapons, including G, Gb. Possible to give Ships Movement Orders. Working on SysGenV2
TerryTigre
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed 23 May 2012 01:11

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby Crucis on Fri 09 Nov 2012 20:03

TerryTigre wrote:Another thing:

If you want to make the difference between H and ST bigger, just use 11 + D10/2 for ST. This gives a 12-16 range, and means it will be harder for T races to colonize ST, and harder for ST to colonize T. For one thing, no T world would be benign to ST races and vice versa...


Terry, I don't mind having T's seeing ST's as benign, and vice-versa, as long as they're both borderline. Also, what you suggest above screws up the underlying math, since it does away with the underlying 2:1 ratio of T/ST HI "points".


And if player races are limited to the 4-12 range, then at least the players would be balanced, which is a bit more important than all races being balanced...


Yep, very true.
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 09 Nov 2012 20:31

I'm playing around with a few ideas, but getting the range of HI values to be both realistic and reasonably balanced is proving tricky. My current thought is 2d10 giving a bell curve with a range of 2-20. Earth would be near the middle with values 2-8 being low gravity/thin atmosphere 9-13 being type T and 14-20 being ST (high gravity/dense atmosphere).
Low/High worlds would treat all planets in their class a benign, T as harsh and planets at the other end as hostile. Type T planets would use the standard 0-1 HD = benign, 2-3 = harsh, 4+ = hostile.

The downside to this system is that you wouldn't have the traditional T/ST split upon system generation. You wouldn't know exactly what type of world you discovered until the system was surveyed.
Charles Rosenberg.

Alexei Timoshenko is the name of my protagonist in the fanfics, although I wish it could have been me.
AlexeiTimoshenko
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010 21:16
Location: Baltimore MD

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Thu 29 Nov 2012 19:02

Picking up here from the ongoing discussion in the SSF section.

For planets on the inner edge of the HZ, I envision 2 scenarios.

1) Mass 2 would be hot arid worlds with fairly thin but breathable atmospheres. Imagine Death Valley heat but with air like in Denver.

2) Mass 3 would be hot super tropical swamp/jungle worlds. Global temperatures averaging in the upper 80's with high humidity and air pressure about 25% higher than Earth normal.

For planets on the outer edge of the HZ I envision a snowball scenario. Temperatures just above freezing with massive glaciation except at the equator.
Charles Rosenberg.

Alexei Timoshenko is the name of my protagonist in the fanfics, although I wish it could have been me.
AlexeiTimoshenko
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010 21:16
Location: Baltimore MD

Re: A new and different idea on (simple) Habitability

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Thu 29 Nov 2012 19:17

For immature ecosystems, I would go with something similar to late Silurian Earth. Plants are appearing, but terrestrial like is limited to insect/arthropod analogs.

Mesozoic Earth analogs are another possibility for marginal environments. Adaptable, but lots of hungry beasties that think of players/nprs as a tasty morsel. Also plenty of big herbivores that would crush a person if they got stepped on.
Charles Rosenberg.

Alexei Timoshenko is the name of my protagonist in the fanfics, although I wish it could have been me.
AlexeiTimoshenko
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010 21:16
Location: Baltimore MD

Next

Return to Cosmic Starfire

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron