Different Titius-Bode Tables?

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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby Vandervecken on Mon 03 Dec 2012 19:51

Crucis wrote:Also, if an HN is in the Rocky Zone, given that its mass will be between about 10 Me and 30 Me (Me = Earth masses), it seems logical that its ability to degrade planets into asteroid belts should be less than an HJ.


I have that in my own game but didn't add it to my Starfire SysGen variant (but I will - sorry TerryTigre, expect an update soon). Although I have added super-Jovians that affect both the inner and outer orbitals. They are Mass 4. I also added Brown Dwarfs which would be Mass 5 (and 0.03 Sols). I think you have a valid point on the Mass 3 gas giants being able to affect the orbital out from it if in a close configuration. I'll have to make a quick table for Mass 2 thru 5 Gas Giants (or equivalents) dealing with AstBelt conversions for my Solar SysGen Frankenstein.

Crucis wrote:My discomfort with densely packed orbital sets is strictly a game balance concern


You'll ultimately have to do what you need to do, I on the other hand am discomforted when something we see up there, has to be discarded due to game balance. Because Inward Migration wasn't forseen as it seems to happen so rarely to lower mass planets, It shocked some scientists to find all those Jovian sized worlds that close to their primary. Once the models allowed for Closer starting Gas Giants , all of a sudden Inward Migration was seen happening a bit more often. Thats the thing with computer simulations, they can only do what they are programed to do, and some closer GG to begin with wasn't in the programming. (Maybe they had played too much Starfire, hehehe)


Regarding Gas Dwarfs - I remember a study done years ago (decades ago) about lower mass GG like them. There was an issue with the gas density. The gravity was not high enough to keep that GG type atmosphere from leaking away; first all the Hydrogen, and then Helium, and then ... The closer to the primary the more the radiative energy would excite the lower density gasses and even more leakage would occur. But that was data from 2 or even 3 decades ago, I'll have to look up Gas Dwarf planets and see what the last decade has taught us. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby Crucis on Mon 03 Dec 2012 21:51

Vandervecken wrote:
Crucis wrote:Regarding Gas Dwarfs - I remember a study done years ago (decades ago) about lower mass GG like them. There was an issue with the gas density. The gravity was not high enough to keep that GG type atmosphere from leaking away; first all the Hydrogen, and then Helium, and then ... The closer to the primary the more the radiative energy would excite the lower density gasses and even more leakage would occur. But that was data from 2 or even 3 decades ago, I'll have to look up Gas Dwarf planets and see what the last decade has taught us. Thanks for the tip.


One thing to consider about Gas Dwarfs, I suppose that when there's a Hot Jupiter losing mass, it will be reduced first to Neptune size, then down to "gas dwarf" size before having its atmosphere burn-off entirely. So I suppose that it's possible that Gas Dwarfs aren't a stable planet type so much as they may be a way point on the path from a full sized HJ to becoming a Chthonian planet...
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby Crucis on Mon 03 Dec 2012 22:03

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:I do like the GD concept. It's not that hard to envision as Venus already has an atmosphere far denser than our own. I also think that going to 5-6 mass categories might not be a bad idea. It would allow for many of the unusual planets that keep cropping up. It might also help to decrease the number of T/ST planets slightly. I'm thinking Mercury/Mars, Venus/Earth, GD/ST, Neptune, Jupiter, and Super Jupiter as relative sizes.



I actually do have some additional mass categories in mind, though I'm undecided about whether using is warranted.

Mass 0: Moons large enough to matter for STARFIRE.
Mass 1: planets with very low mass, too low to attract and hold significant atmospheres (less than 0.1 Me)
Mass 2: planets with gravities less than 1.4 (0.1 to 2.6 Me)
Mass 3: planets with gravities of 1.4 to 2.0 that of Earth (2.7 to 10 Me)
Mass 4: 11 to 30 Me, Neptune sized.
Mass 5: 31 or more Me. Perhaps up to 1 Mj or more; Saturn/Jupiter sized
Mass 6: "Super-Jupiters", not sure where to set the minimum.

(which I suppose makes Brown dwarf "planets" Mass 7)




BTW, Mars is actually a borderline Mass 1/2 planet on the mass 2 side (though barely).


As for Gas Dwarfs, I don't know if they're a legit planet type, or just a waypoint in the reduction path of Hot Jupiters down to Chthonian planets. I do like the idea of them as "scenery". After all, it's not like they're any more or less useful than Type V's.
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 04 Dec 2012 04:53

Crucis wrote:As for Gas Dwarfs, I don't know if they're a legit planet type, or just a waypoint in the reduction path of Hot Jupiters down to Chthonian planets. I do like the idea of them as "scenery". After all, it's not like they're any more or less useful than Type V's.


How useful they are may depend on the gas content. If it's mostly Hydrogen, I could see a race finding a way to use it as a fuel source.
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby Crucis on Tue 04 Dec 2012 11:42

Vandervecken wrote:Because Inward Migration wasn't forseen as it seems to happen so rarely to lower mass planets, It shocked some scientists to find all those Jovian sized worlds that close to their primary. Once the models allowed for Closer starting Gas Giants , all of a sudden Inward Migration was seen happening a bit more often. Thats the thing with computer simulations, they can only do what they are programed to do, and some closer GG to begin with wasn't in the programming. (Maybe they had played too much Starfire, hehehe)



Yeah, I am aware that HJ's and HN's exist in the Rocky Zone due to inward migration. But what I'm curious about is after those planets move inward, what's left or what happens in the gas zone? Is it left empty because the planets formed there have left for warmer "pastures"? Are new, but smaller gas giants (smaller because the first one(s) used up so much of the matter for themselves) taking their place? This is something I have yet to see addressed or speculated upon in the articles on HJ's I've read.
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby Crucis on Tue 04 Dec 2012 11:47

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:As for Gas Dwarfs, I don't know if they're a legit planet type, or just a waypoint in the reduction path of Hot Jupiters down to Chthonian planets. I do like the idea of them as "scenery". After all, it's not like they're any more or less useful than Type V's.


How useful they are may depend on the gas content. If it's mostly Hydrogen, I could see a race finding a way to use it as a fuel source.



A possible downside to including Gas Dwarfs as a replacement for mass 3 Type V planets (for scenery purposes) is that *IF* the Unusual Races rules from Ultra/Solar were to be included in Cosmic, removing some of the Type V's wouldn't be good for Venusian races.

However, I'm not a huge fan of UR's, so I'm not sure that it's all that big a deal to me. Just thought that I'd point it out for informational purposes.
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 04 Dec 2012 22:49

Crucis wrote:However, I'm not a huge fan of UR's, so I'm not sure that it's all that big a deal to me. Just thought that I'd point it out for informational purposes.


I like Classic Starfire with it's sentient races being humanoid or centauroid for the most part. Beyond that's in the novels, about the only addition I could see would be an aquatic race. Perhaps some of the GD's are actually ocean or near ocean worlds where sentient life evolved in the seas. They have little or no knowledge of the universe at large, but shouldn't preclude them from being npr's.
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby Crucis on Tue 04 Dec 2012 23:08

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:However, I'm not a huge fan of UR's, so I'm not sure that it's all that big a deal to me. Just thought that I'd point it out for informational purposes.


I like Classic Starfire with it's sentient races being humanoid or centauroid for the most part. Beyond that's in the novels, about the only addition I could see would be an aquatic race. Perhaps some of the GD's are actually ocean or near ocean worlds where sentient life evolved in the seas. They have little or no knowledge of the universe at large, but shouldn't preclude them from being npr's.



When I say "Unusual Races", I mean races whose homeworlds aren't T or ST type planets. I'm not averse to T/ST races with unusual forms. Heck, the Zarkolyans are hardly a humanoid or centauroid race. They're something like trilaterally symmetrical, IIRC. I will admit though that I do tend towards more conventional racial forms.

As for "ocean worlds", given how high a percentage of water exists on Earth, itt could be an ocean world. As for an aquatic race, I'm not so sure about them being an NPR, though I admit that that's a bias. I could see an amphibian race, but a purely aquatic race, I'm not so sure about that. Without the ability to use fire, I'm not sure how a race evolves into a tool using race.
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 04 Dec 2012 23:54

My idea for an aquatic npr would be based on something similar to a killer whale. We're seeing evidence of learned behaviors in various killer whale populations including what a particular group will hunt for food. Some scientists see this as a sign of culture, which along with their language makes a case for potential sentience.

Other dolphin species have been observed using underwater grasses/seaweed to protect their beaks when hunting food on the ocean floor. I would consider this a sign of tool use. Would an aquatic race be as dextrous as a Human or Rigellian or Crucian? Probably not, but they may develop other means of making tools.
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Re: Different Titius-Bode Tables?

Postby Crucis on Wed 05 Dec 2012 00:00

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:My idea for an aquatic npr would be based on something similar to a killer whale. We're seeing evidence of learned behaviors in various killer whale populations including what a particular group will hunt for food. Some scientists see this as a sign of culture, which along with their language makes a case for potential sentience.

Other dolphin species have been observed using underwater grasses/seaweed to protect their beaks when hunting food on the ocean floor. I would consider this a sign of tool use. Would an aquatic race be as dextrous as a Human or Rigellian or Crucian? Probably not, but they may develop other means of making tools.


I could see some minor level of tool use. Clearly if dolphins are using grasses in that way, they're beginning to learn the concept of tool use. But I think that to advance sufficiently to qualify as an NPR at a noticeable level for Starfire, they'd have to evolve into amphibians so that they could start learning to use fire.
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