Warp Points

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Re: Warp Points

Postby Cralis on Fri 14 Dec 2012 00:58

Crucis wrote:For that matter, so does the Ultra-far WP, except in the other direction, which is why I may need to rethink using it.


The alternative is to create special rules for it. The same argument could be made against Long-Distance Companion stars... they aren't an average of 1 StMP either. BUT, it requires multiple StMP to reach them.

I would consider doing something like making the entry WP 1 StMP from the center of the system and 1 StMP from the far WP, but 2 StMP from the center the far WP.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Crucis on Fri 14 Dec 2012 01:07

Cralis wrote:
Crucis wrote:For that matter, so does the Ultra-far WP, except in the other direction, which is why I may need to rethink using it.


The alternative is to create special rules for it. The same argument could be made against Long-Distance Companion stars... they aren't an average of 1 StMP either. BUT, it requires multiple StMP to reach them.

I would consider doing something like making the entry WP 1 StMP from the center of the system and 1 StMP from the far WP, but 2 StMP from the center the far WP.



Matt, I have no problems with concept of Ultra-Far WP's. The problem that I foresee is that the best way to make an ISF-like table work is for the entirety of the table to have a statistical average distance from the system primary of 15 sH. But that means that including the Ultra-far type in the table is like throwing a grenade into the statistical average.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Cralis on Fri 14 Dec 2012 01:10

Crucis wrote:Matt, I have no problems with concept of Ultra-Far WP's. The problem that I foresee is that the best way to make an ISF-like table work is for the entirety of the table to have a statistical average distance from the system primary of 15 sH. But that means that including the Ultra-far type in the table is like throwing a grenade into the statistical average.


I'm not saying one way or another. I was just trying to offer a solution.

Honestly, as part of the regular table, I think you are absolutely correct. I was thinking more along the lines of an anomaly.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Crucis on Fri 14 Dec 2012 01:11

Cralis wrote:
Crucis wrote:Matt, I have no problems with concept of Ultra-Far WP's. The problem that I foresee is that the best way to make an ISF-like table work is for the entirety of the table to have a statistical average distance from the system primary of 15 sH. But that means that including the Ultra-far type in the table is like throwing a grenade into the statistical average.


I'm not saying one way or another. I was just trying to offer a solution.

Honestly, as part of the regular table, I think you are absolutely correct. I was thinking more along the lines of an anomaly.


Oh, as an anomaly or oddity or whatever, ultra-far WP's are just fine.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 14 Dec 2012 06:14

Crucis wrote:On average, the distance between 2 WP's in a star system needs to be about 30 system hexes (i.e. 1 StMP).


The average works fine in most cases. I'm just used to the tables from SaW where in wp junction systems like Cannae, you have many routes that are closer than average including one that is only 4 system hexes between the wp's. Under the current rules, that 4 system hex route only takes about a day to traverse.

As a wp characteristic my idea breaks the rules. As an oddity or anomaly, it makes for a valuable strategic asset. For movement purposes you could go from far end to far end on a single StMP as long as you controlled the nexus.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 14 Dec 2012 20:25

Here's another thought.

Engine overload- One I/J is offline for d10 turns due to power fluctuations etc. Ic are unaffected due to more robust construction. Smct drives are permanently disabled (the smct itself is intact but is immobilized). In practical terms this is only a hindrance to smaller ships as ships with bigger engine rooms will still the one with the offline I/J be usable at the tactical level.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Crucis on Fri 14 Dec 2012 22:58

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:On average, the distance between 2 WP's in a star system needs to be about 30 system hexes (i.e. 1 StMP).


The average works fine in most cases. I'm just used to the tables from SaW where in wp junction systems like Cannae, you have many routes that are closer than average including one that is only 4 system hexes between the wp's. Under the current rules, that 4 system hex route only takes about a day to traverse.

As a wp characteristic my idea breaks the rules. As an oddity or anomaly, it makes for a valuable strategic asset. For movement purposes you could go from far end to far end on a single StMP as long as you controlled the nexus.



The tables in Stars at War would have been based on the WP Type table in ISF. And if anything, those tables would have produced an average star to WP distance greater than 15 sH. Regardless, an average doesn't mean that all WPs are always going to be at an average distance from each other. There will always be examples where there are WP's that are closer, sometimes very much closer than the average distance that the StMP system assumes. But if one is going to commit to using the StMP system, you just have to accept that there will be times when it'll seem like you;re getting a little hosed when the WP's are close. The only other option is to do strategic movement the old ISF way, and count sys Hexes from WP to WP, and move the acceptable # of sH's per month. Of course, counting sys Hexes is a real pain (unless you used a sysgen program that calculated all of the WP to WP distances in each generated star system).

As for the idea you proposed, frankly, one shouldn't have to pay any StMP's to "cross" that system if all the WP's connecting to that system connected to that single wonderful WP. After all, it should only require a tiny handful of turns to get any ship, no matter how bad its turn mode, turned around so that it could re-enter the WP on the proper heading.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Crucis on Fri 14 Dec 2012 23:44

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:Here's another thought.

Engine overload- One I/J is offline for d10 turns due to power fluctuations etc. Ic are unaffected due to more robust construction. Smct drives are permanently disabled (the smct itself is intact but is immobilized). In practical terms this is only a hindrance to smaller ships as ships with bigger engine rooms will still the one with the offline I/J be usable at the tactical level.


This seems more like an oddity than one that should be a standard type. But it is an interesting idea.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 15 Dec 2012 06:32

Crucis wrote:As for the idea you proposed, frankly, one shouldn't have to pay any StMP's to "cross" that system if all the WP's connecting to that system connected to that single wonderful WP. After all, it should only require a tiny handful of turns to get any ship, no matter how bad its turn mode, turned around so that it could re-enter the WP on the proper heading.


I'm not saying that all inbound wp's would hit the nexus. There could well be other wp's in the system that would take the standard 1 StMP to travel to.

Let's say you have systems A, B, C, and D. System A has a nexus wp connecting to systems B and C but not D. Traveling from D to the nexus takes 1 StMP at which point you can travel to B or C. Going from B to C via the nexus would effectively be the same a going directly from B to C via a single wp.

My idea is to have a wp that becomes a strategic choke point that the controlling player would most likely defend at all reasonable costs. Think of why Manticore controls all of the known termini of the wormhole junction in the Honorverse setting. The wormhole allows Manticore to forces far more efficiently than many of their neighbors can.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Crucis on Sat 15 Dec 2012 08:42

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:As for the idea you proposed, frankly, one shouldn't have to pay any StMP's to "cross" that system if all the WP's connecting to that system connected to that single wonderful WP. After all, it should only require a tiny handful of turns to get any ship, no matter how bad its turn mode, turned around so that it could re-enter the WP on the proper heading.


I'm not saying that all inbound wp's would hit the nexus. There could well be other wp's in the system that would take the standard 1 StMP to travel to.

Let's say you have systems A, B, C, and D. System A has a nexus wp connecting to systems B and C but not D. Traveling from D to the nexus takes 1 StMP at which point you can travel to B or C. Going from B to C via the nexus would effectively be the same a going directly from B to C via a single wp.

My idea is to have a wp that becomes a strategic choke point that the controlling player would most likely defend at all reasonable costs.


The same would be true of any WP that (indirectly) connects to multiple places. Think of the Bellerophon sector in the latest Starfire novels, Exodus and Extremis. The WP that connected the Bellerophon system to the rest of Rim Federation space was a strategic choke point ... for both sides, since it was the only way into or out of the sector (well, at least into human space, and prior to the artificial WP being created).




Think of why Manticore controls all of the known termini of the wormhole junction in the Honorverse setting. The wormhole allows Manticore to forces far more efficiently than many of their neighbors can.


Manticore's wormhole is so great because it connects a lot of places that matter, not because it connects a lot of places.


BTW, one thing that would be particularly efficient with such a WP is that you could cover what is equivalent of multiple WP's at a considerably reduced expense.
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