Warp Points

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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 15 Dec 2012 20:38

Crucis wrote:BTW, one thing that would be particularly efficient with such a WP is that you could cover what is equivalent of multiple WP's at a considerably reduced expense.


Conversely, should an enemy control multiple ends of the nexus wp, they could in theory launch a coordinated assault and swamp the defenses.

Crucis wrote:Manticore's wormhole is so great because it connects a lot of places that matter, not because it connects a lot of places.


You're right on that point. To put things in perspective imaging if the 6 wp's in Orphicon were a single nexus. At least 4 of the connections are to important systems and a fifth (Mhaladan) leads to 2 more important systems. The difference is that Humanity had been colonizing other worlds for centuries when the Manticore wormhole was discovered. How useful a nexus wp would be would depend on what the connecting systems have as far as planets. If a few of the connecting systems have decent planets it becomes a priceless strategic asset.

Personally, I would consider a nexus wp to be a very rare occurrence. Say a 1% chance on an unusual wp table.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 15 Dec 2012 20:52

I'm manually checking the rough distance in light hours for all of the wp's listed in SaW. So far I'm getting far more beyond 6 light hour range than closer than 6 light hours. Seventeen connections are beyond 6 light hours and another 5 are 5-6 light hours distant. Ten connections are within 5 light hours and of those only 5 are less than 4 light hours apart. This is as of system 0007 Blackfoot.

Just checked Cannae. Total is now 60 links beyond 6 light hours and 19 more at 5-6 light hours. Total of 44 links within 5 light hour range.

So far 1 StMP to travel between wp's is being generous.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Cralis on Sat 15 Dec 2012 21:45

CLASSIC STARFIRE was not designed with 1 StMP in mind, at least until Marvin introduced the StMP with Sky Marshal #2.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Crucis on Sat 15 Dec 2012 21:46

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:I'm manually checking the rough distance in light hours for all of the wp's listed in SaW. So far I'm getting far more beyond 6 light hour range than closer than 6 light hours. Seventeen connections are beyond 6 light hours and another 5 are 5-6 light hours distant. Ten connections are within 5 light hours and of those only 5 are less than 4 light hours apart. This is as of system 0007 Blackfoot.

Just checked Cannae. Total is now 60 links beyond 6 light hours and 19 more at 5-6 light hours. Total of 44 links within 5 light hour range.

So far 1 StMP to travel between wp's is being generous.


Alexei, this is because the ISF WP table is heavily skewed towards WP-to-star distances of well over 180 LM (15 system hexes). ISF wasn't designed with the StMP in mind. ISF pretty much assumed that you were going to be counting system hexes to determine how far you could travel in a month. Furthermore, strategic speeds in pure ISF were twice as fast as in 3rdR/SM#2, due to the tactical scale of 1/2 LS hex and 30 sec tac turns. When 3rdR/SM#2 cut the size of the tac hex in half while hold the tac turn length at 30 sec, it caused the strategic speed to be halved as well.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 15 Dec 2012 22:40

I understand the changes from 3rd to 3rdR. As a new product going forward Cosmic can easily handle the StMP concept. What concerns me is being able to find a way to integrate existing material such as SaW etc without making wholesale changes to the existing star systems. Granted that most of those systems would need tweaking due to the revised star and planet types, but I would like to find a way to stay as close to Canon as possible.

If I've done my math correctly, a unit with a strategic speed of 3 can move 3 hexes per day under the current rules. Using that as a baseline does mean that average wp separation needs to be 15 system hexes. Under the old ISF rules, a 30 hex average would have been 1 StMP. The actual distances from SaW seem to be about 2 StMP on average assuming a StMP is 10 days.

Perhaps what is needed is a method to convert hexes to StMP. Say if the distance between 2 wp's is up to 30 system hexes it can be covered in a single StMP. Distances beyond 30 hexes would take 2 StMP to traverse. Every 30 system hexes or fraction thereof beyond 60 system hexes would require an additional StMP to traverse. Using a 30 system hex= 1 StMP conversion also allows a way to conduct long running battles from an ultra far wp, as you would know roughly how far away the closest system is.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Crucis on Sat 15 Dec 2012 23:11

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:I understand the changes from 3rd to 3rdR. As a new product going forward Cosmic can easily handle the StMP concept. What concerns me is being able to find a way to integrate existing material such as SaW etc without making wholesale changes to the existing star systems. Granted that most of those systems would need tweaking due to the revised star and planet types, but I would like to find a way to stay as close to Canon as possible.

If I've done my math correctly, a unit with a strategic speed of 3 can move 3 hexes per day under the current rules. Using that as a baseline does mean that average wp separation needs to be 15 system hexes. Under the old ISF rules, a 30 hex average would have been 1 StMP. The actual distances from SaW seem to be about 2 StMP on average assuming a StMP is 10 days.

Perhaps what is needed is a method to convert hexes to StMP. Say if the distance between 2 wp's is up to 30 system hexes it can be covered in a single StMP. Distances beyond 30 hexes would take 2 StMP to traverse. Every 30 system hexes or fraction thereof beyond 60 system hexes would require an additional StMP to traverse. Using a 30 system hex= 1 StMP conversion also allows a way to conduct long running battles from an ultra far wp, as you would know roughly how far away the closest system is.


Alexei, IIRC, 1 StMP actually is 30 system hexes.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sun 16 Dec 2012 06:57

Ok, I thought that might be the case.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Mon 17 Dec 2012 20:08

After much number crunching based on both ISF and 3rdR I've realized that at least on the system level cutting the tH size while leaving everything else alone (effectively cutting speeds in half) makes movement rather easy. Unless my math is off, using 3rdR, strategic speed winds up being the number of system hexes a unit can traverse in a day. It becomes very easy to figure how long it takes to travel between wp's in an uncontested system.

What I'd be tempted to do is take the strategic speed concept a bit further. My idea is that the strategic speed also becomes the number of wp's that a unit can safely traverse in a month. Additional wp's up to the tactical speed number can be traversed, but with risk of engine burnout as if a ship exceeded its safe cruising speed. StMP would become a unit of distance used to figure the number of additional maps needed for an ultra far wp or LDC. Ships smaller than FG's would be able to move faster and farther, while BB and larger units would be slowed down. It would also help explain why the bugs had warships equipped with (Ic). On a tactical level such ships would be slower but on a strategic level they would have an advantage.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby Crucis on Mon 17 Dec 2012 20:53

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:After much number crunching based on both ISF and 3rdR I've realized that at least on the system level cutting the tH size while leaving everything else alone (effectively cutting speeds in half) makes movement rather easy. Unless my math is off, using 3rdR, strategic speed winds up being the number of system hexes a unit can traverse in a day. It becomes very easy to figure how long it takes to travel between wp's in an uncontested system.

What I'd be tempted to do is take the strategic speed concept a bit further. My idea is that the strategic speed also becomes the number of wp's that a unit can safely traverse in a month. Additional wp's up to the tactical speed number can be traversed, but with risk of engine burnout as if a ship exceeded its safe cruising speed. StMP would become a unit of distance used to figure the number of additional maps needed for an ultra far wp or LDC. Ships smaller than FG's would be able to move faster and farther, while BB and larger units would be slowed down. It would also help explain why the bugs had warships equipped with (Ic). On a tactical level such ships would be slower but on a strategic level they would have an advantage.


Alexei, you've just described how the StMP system already works. A ship can traverse a number of star systems equal to its strategic speed. The system has its flaws, like screwing any hull type that has its strategic speed rounded down, like BB's. with a tac speed of 5 and a strategic speed of 2.5, rounded down to 2.

I actually wrote up an alternate to the StMP system a while back based on how many light-hours of strategic movement ships have in a month. I calculated the average distances for WP-to-WP, WP-to-Star, and WP-to-binary companion star in LH's.

To determine a ship's LH-movement allowance, you'd just multiply the ship's UN-rounded cruising speed by 6 with the result being in LH's. Then you'd expend some of that allowance in making any of the 4 standard movements: Comp A to WP (3 LH), Comp B to WP (6 LH), WP to WP (4 LH), or comp A to comp B (4 LH). The values listed are averages meant for simplification and may be slightly off once system generation is finished.

Example: if your ship was at Earth and wanted to travel thru Alpha Centauri to Galloway's World, 2 transits away, this is what it would look like. Earth to WP (3 LH), WP to WP thru A.C. (+4 LH), WP to Galloway's World (+3 LH), for a (3+4+3=) 10 LH trip. A BC with a speed of 6 and a cruising speed of 3 would have a monthly LH allowance of 18 LH, and would easily make the trip in a "short" 4 weeks (3 weeks and a couple of days). A BB with a speed of 5 and cruising speed of 2.5 would have a monthly LH allowance of 15 LH, and would require a full 4 weeks to complete the trip.

The LH strategic movement system is a little more involved than StMP, but it also has the advantage of supporting fractional cruising speeds.
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Re: Warp Points

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Mon 17 Dec 2012 21:49

I'm not opposed to the LH system. It has real possibilities.

Here's an example of my hex based idea using the data on Casnnae in SAW. Wp 8 is on radian 2 at 26 hexes and wp 12 is on the same radian at 30 hexes. In the hes based system a strategic speed 2 unit would need 2 full days to travel between the wp's and could transit at the end of day 2 and be in the wp hex of the next system. A strategic speed 3 unit could make transit and still have 2 hexes of movement available. The down side is that I have no way at the moment to allow for fractional hexes on the strategic movement scale.

The reason that I'm counting both hexes and transits is to allow for the possibility of wp's along a chain to each be fairly close to each other in the systems along the chain. Granted, there aren't many cases in SaW where there are multiple short links, but it is a possibility. The other reason I'm looking at a cap on transits is to limit players from being able to ferry multiple waves of fighters into a system merely by running big SD(V)'s back and forth through a wp.
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