WP Stagnation

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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Wed 09 Jan 2013 02:34

tmul4050 wrote:The main diference that I see with the Rigelians is in their attitude to space warfare. The fighter was their primary arm, or weapon of their fleet. The carrier was the main battle unit, with no other vessel larger. Heavy cruisers were used as command ships (at least later) but these were never a dread threat to the grand alliance. The Rigilians were focused on fighters. Little combined arms. I could see them at some point deploying CVA's (if they had survived) and battlecruisers but BB's and SD's I don't think so.


Actually, I think that they didn't build laster ships because they had a limited budget, and therefore focused their attentions on carrier construction.


The only race that approached this outlook is the Ophuichi, but they tend to see themselves as a plug in to the federation (well it seems that way to me). I don't know much about the crucian order of battle to comment about them.


Well, the Ophiuchi built BB's and SD's prior to their first contact with the Federation and the Orions. It was only during and after ISW3 when they were partners with the Terrans that they stopped building a battleline and focused on becoming a carrier navy.

As for the Star Union, they're definitely a combined arms navy. Of course, they only gained fighter tech during ISW4.


We should remember that the Rigelian method of war was very successful to them (until ISW3 anyway).


I'm not sure that they had fighters for all that long prior to ISW3, so it's not as it their methods were long standing. Besides, when you're going around wiping out anyone you meet, rather than talking to them first, you may not need a battleline to break down an enemy's WP defenses, if you hit them before they have a chance to get prepared.


As for their attitude on other races, remember that once before that they had changed their worldview. At one point a large part of their pop enslaved other races. That view could become ascendent again. Sort of a redemption, kind of. "Killing all races is impossible so we must rule them. But first we must stop them killing us. I propose we make a treaty so we can recover. And we show we are not currently a threat, but could be helpful."


I'm not sure that I can agree. For one thing, all the (known) remaining Rigellians are on a single colony world that regressed to around an IND-1 level of technology and is watched by Alliance picket ships from orbit to make certain that they stay that way.

And from my reading of the Rigellian mentality during ISW3, I don't get the impression that they had the mentality to try to hide away some sort of "World Which Must Be Hidden", like the Bugs. The Bugs had the cold and calculating forethought to do it. I'm not sure that the Rigellians would have done the same thing.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Wed 09 Jan 2013 05:16

The only time I remember the Rigellians enslaving a rival was the Rozhark on their own shared home planet. After the revolt and the Hammers of Tarwix, the SOP became exterminate all other sentient life.

As far as consciously hiding a system from the alliance, probably not. I could see the Rigellians retreating towards a known open wp though with the idea that a closed wp is a strategic asset. If there was a sector of the Protectorate accessible only via closed wp's, it might serve as the staging area for an eventual counter strike.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby tmul4050 on Fri 11 Jan 2013 06:19

Actually the Rigilains had to have fighters a while. In their description it talks about medalions passed down in families of fighter pilots. That implies generations of use.

I do know that the Rigilian fleet was limited by its budjet but the history seems to implies a choice in the use of carriers vs capital ships. If the Rigilians had more cash (so to speak :) ) and personel (for manning req.) It seems they would build more escorts and carriers, not heavy combatants. This is implied in Stars at War. The fighter was there weapon. Their mistake was to conclude no one else was able to develop fighters quickly. And to think they could win in the first place if they struck hard and fast enough (something I have seen players do from time to time :D ).

Mainly though (and this is just my opinion) Rigilians would lose something if they just became a caombined arms fleet. The fact they are carrier oriented is what makes them interesting :) .
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Fri 11 Jan 2013 12:45

tmul4050 wrote:Actually the Rigilains had to have fighters a while. In their description it talks about medalions passed down in families of fighter pilots. That implies generations of use.

I do know that the Rigilian fleet was limited by its budjet but the history seems to implies a choice in the use of carriers vs capital ships. If the Rigilians had more cash (so to speak :) ) and personel (for manning req.) It seems they would build more escorts and carriers, not heavy combatants. This is implied in Stars at War. The fighter was there weapon. Their mistake was to conclude no one else was able to develop fighters quickly. And to think they could win in the first place if they struck hard and fast enough (something I have seen players do from time to time :D ).

Mainly though (and this is just my opinion) Rigilians would lose something if they just became a combined arms fleet. The fact they are carrier oriented is what makes them interesting :) .



I guess that it seems to me that at the TL where fighters exist, a purely carrier based fleet can only work in the absence of mines and energy buoys, and heavy WP defenses. One might be able to use such a fleet in concert with an exploration force, given that it's probably unlikely that you'd run into a heavily defended WP. But once you do hit those heavily defended WP's, a fleet is going to need the heavy hitters to slug their way through the WP defenses.

Of course, once one has broken into a star system, one can use a carrier fleet to one's heart's content. But carrier fleets aren't going to blast their way past heavy WP defenses, at least not without taking even more gawd-awful losses than a heavy battleline would. This is why I think that the Rigellians as a pure carrier fleet is unsustainable.

If for whatever reason, the Rigellians had been more successful against the Terrans or the Orions, eventually, they'd have run up against heavy WP defenses and their carrier fleet would have been stymied. And they'd have been forced to either find a different and less defended route, stop advancing, or build a battleline to assault the defenses in the way that their carrier fleet couldn't.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 11 Jan 2013 23:43

The key with the Rigellians is that until they ran into the TFN and Khanate, they had a vast edge in technology over the races that they had encountered. IIRC the Andolani were the only HT race that the Rigellians had met before ISW-3 and in that case the Andolani had no military to speak of.

The TFN, Khanate, and Ophiuchi all had inherent advantages that let them close the tech and tactics gaps very quickly. For the TFN it was wet navy carrier warfare. For the Khanate it was their honor code which made fighter combat attractive. For the Ophiuchi it was evolution from an avian ancestor.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Sat 12 Jan 2013 00:10

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:The key with the Rigellians is that until they ran into the TFN and Khanate, they had a vast edge in technology over the races that they had encountered. IIRC the Andolani were the only HT race that the Rigellians had met before ISW-3 and in that case the Andolani had no military to speak of.

The TFN, Khanate, and Ophiuchi all had inherent advantages that let them close the tech and tactics gaps very quickly. For the TFN it was wet navy carrier warfare. For the Khanate it was their honor code which made fighter combat attractive. For the Ophiuchi it was evolution from an avian ancestor.


I agree that each of those three races had special reasons that allowed them to adapt to fighters quickly. With the TFN, humanity's history with carrier warfare meant that it had an historical knowledge base to draw upon that allowed the TFN to develop various carrier related strategies and procedures much more quickly than someone with no such history. The Ophiuchi obviously would have adapted to becoming excellent pilots very quickly, though I don't know about the higher level stuff. The Orions didn't necessarily have any genetic disposition to be good pilots or a historical knowledge base. And yet as you correctly point out, they saw fighters as a way for them to return to their warrior roots since the fighter allowed individual pilots to fight as individuals or at least as members of a very small team of warriors (i.e. a squadron).


And yes, if a race possessing fighters is only fighting low TL enemies, particularly ones that aren't ready to face an onslaught of fighters, that higher TL fighter using race will probably wipe out most such enemies, if they don't have any chance to prepare a strong WP defense. Of course, if they don't overrun the low TL race quickly enough, even a low TL race with a decent amount of MC can build up a pretty strong defense based on swarms of laser armed CT's, etc. And even a carrier using race is going to take some lumps against that sort of defense.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 12 Jan 2013 07:08

Crucis wrote:And yes, if a race possessing fighters is only fighting low TL enemies, particularly ones that aren't ready to face an onslaught of fighters, that higher TL fighter using race will probably wipe out most such enemies, if they don't have any chance to prepare a strong WP defense. Of course, if they don't overrun the low TL race quickly enough, even a low TL race with a decent amount of MC can build up a pretty strong defense based on swarms of laser armed CT's, etc. And even a carrier using race is going to take some lumps against that sort of defense.


Against a sizable interstellar empire (say the Gorm) the Rigellians may well have taken losses once they hit the core systems. Overall though, the war would have swung in their favor over time due to their somewhat larger resource base.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby tmul4050 on Mon 14 Jan 2013 06:57

Actually I'm not certain how an engagement between a CT fleet armed with energy wpns and a carrier fleet would go, but it would be interesting to find out.

I do agree with the above statements in that the Rigilians would (if they had lasted that long) needed an answer to heavily defended warp points and that answer would be BBs and SDs (and SBMhawks). I do thnk that fighters would still be important to them. Maybe assault fleets to take the warp point and strike fleets (ie carriers) to take the system. And of course fortresses to defnd them.

As mentioned above the rigilians had other race slaves once, who eventually revolted. The Rigilians in space (the most conservative of the lot, no slaves for them) flattened the planet with asteroids totally killing both planet based rigilians and slaves (Rozachs I am probably wrong on the spelling). They then said basically "god's will" and went on their merry genocidal way. And that was that.
BUT :!:
I do think that after such a catastrophic loss to the alliance, it is possible for the survivors to change paths again. No society is so monolithic that it can't change if stress is applied.
Anyway I suppose it depends on how you want future history to go. If they do turn up again I hope its not just to be immediately squashed. :cry:
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Mon 14 Jan 2013 10:13

tmul4050 wrote:Actually I'm not certain how an engagement between a CT fleet armed with energy wpns and a carrier fleet would go, but it would be interesting to find out.


It all depends on when the carriers can launch. Off the top of my head, I don't recall if fighters can launch on the turn of transit or have to wait a turn for their catapults to stabilize. If it's the latter, they're probably toast, if the defenders have enough swarm ships to destroy the entire assault wave. If it's the former and the fighters can launch, then then the attacking carrier fleet has a chance, because the chances are pretty good that they'll launch almost all of their fighters since a laser-armed fleet of CT swarmers isn't likely to destroy any single ship with a single volley.

IIRC, I've said elsewhere that I think when faced with a defense of laser-armed CT swarms, the best available assault tactic before missile pods is probably a simultaneous transit with an assault swarm of CT's, best armed with Force Beams. One of the biggest problems that one faces in a normal assault against the defending CT swarm is that the assaulting ships' multiplex tracking is down on the turn of transit, and it would be very painful in terms of to-hit penalties to try to target multiple targets with all the weapons mounted on a larger ship. Thus, the best way to avoid this problem is a counter swarm of some sort.


BUT :!:
I do think that after such a catastrophic loss to the alliance, it is possible for the survivors to change paths again. No society is so monolithic that it can't change if stress is applied.
Anyway I suppose it depends on how you want future history to go. If they do turn up again I hope its not just to be immediately squashed. :cry:



Actually, I have no plans to do anything with the Rigellians or the Bugs at this point.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Mon 14 Jan 2013 23:02

Per 06.02.01 fighters can't launch on the turn of transit.. The problem is that the defenders need to roll for activation per 06.02.03. Unless the defender has a significant numbers advantage, mamy of the fighters may well get a chance to launch. Wether they have bays available to land and rearm is another question. With statistical activation rolls, I would say that a CT swarm defender would need at least 150 ships just to have enough activate to cripple the first carrier wave. Depending upon how many carriers the attacker has, a swarm could well get swamped after a few turns.
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