WP Stagnation

Discussions about Cosmic Starfire.

Moderators: SDS Members, SDS Owner

Forum rules
Cosmic Starfire is being designed by Fred Burton (aka 'Crucis'). Please direct all inquiries to him.

1. Nothing obscene.
2. No advertising or spamming.
3. No personal information. Mostly aimed at the posting of OTHER people's information.
4. No flame wars. We encourage debate, but it becomes a flame when insults fly and tempers flare.

Try to stick with the forum's topic. Threads that belong to another forum will be moved to that forum.

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Mon 14 Jan 2013 23:20

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:Per 06.02.01 fighters can't launch on the turn of transit.. The problem is that the defenders need to roll for activation per 06.02.03. Unless the defender has a significant numbers advantage, many of the fighters may well get a chance to launch. Whether they have bays available to land and rearm is another question. With statistical activation rolls, I would say that a CT swarm defender would need at least 150 ships just to have enough activate to cripple the first carrier wave. Depending upon how many carriers the attacker has, a swarm could well get swamped after a few turns.



Yes, the defender does need to have a lot of ships in the swarm, so it would greatly depend on how wealthy the system was and how many CT's it could afford to build.

But I think that you're correct that the outcome of the battle would likely be determined in the first 5 turns or less. It would be a race between the defender getting enough of the swarm activated to destroy the entire wave of carriers before they could launch and the attacker avoiding carrier destruction too quickly, because if the attacker could get even a single wave's worth of fighters into space, the defender is probably going to be in a world of hurt.
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 15 Jan 2013 02:08

Crucis wrote:But I think that you're correct that the outcome of the battle would likely be determined in the first 5 turns or less. It would be a race between the defender getting enough of the swarm activated to destroy the entire wave of carriers before they could launch and the attacker avoiding carrier destruction too quickly, because if the attacker could get even a single wave's worth of fighters into space, the defender is probably going to be in a world of hurt.


How badly hurt depends on the weapons mix available to the fighters. If they are limited to fR for anti ship strikes the defender has a chance if they can kill enough bays to hamper the rearming process. If the fighters have fL it's a different story as the strike will get multiple attack runs in on the defenders.
Charles Rosenberg.

Alexei Timoshenko is the name of my protagonist in the fanfics, although I wish it could have been me.
AlexeiTimoshenko
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010 21:16
Location: Baltimore MD

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Tue 15 Jan 2013 02:17

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:But I think that you're correct that the outcome of the battle would likely be determined in the first 5 turns or less. It would be a race between the defender getting enough of the swarm activated to destroy the entire wave of carriers before they could launch and the attacker avoiding carrier destruction too quickly, because if the attacker could get even a single wave's worth of fighters into space, the defender is probably going to be in a world of hurt.


How badly hurt depends on the weapons mix available to the fighters. If they are limited to fR for anti ship strikes the defender has a chance if they can kill enough bays to hamper the rearming process. If the fighters have fL it's a different story as the strike will get multiple attack runs in on the defenders.


Agreed. It's a case where the difference of a single TL makes a big difference. In fact, one might argue that at TL8 with only fR available for offensive use, the attacker might be better off saving his carriers and fighters for later, and using some other assault tactic ... such as a simultaneous assault with a counter swarm.
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 15 Jan 2013 06:37

Crucis wrote:Agreed. It's a case where the difference of a single TL makes a big difference. In fact, one might argue that at TL8 with only fR available for offensive use, the attacker might be better off saving his carriers and fighters for later, and using some other assault tactic ... such as a simultaneous assault with a counter swarm.


If the attacker has his own swarm CT's available and in range to make a difference I would agree. The problem is that the defender is usually going to have shorter lines to the front and in a smaller empire less systems to defend so they can concentrate faster. The other issue is how close the attacker is to getting fL compared to the defender bringing up primary armed swarms. I for one would be willing to lake losses in my initial waves if I can crush a swarm. Remember that the defender may be unable to quickly replace their losses.
Charles Rosenberg.

Alexei Timoshenko is the name of my protagonist in the fanfics, although I wish it could have been me.
AlexeiTimoshenko
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010 21:16
Location: Baltimore MD

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby tmul4050 on Tue 15 Jan 2013 07:45

I think it would also depend on if the defenders have escorts (units with point defense or even anti fighter missles) seeded in amonst the swarm. I suppose it would depend on how much lead time and information the defender had.
I may be wrong, as I cannot find my rulebook but a CT could have 4 point defense, and still have max speed. Laser armed CTs would be bad, Force beams would be worse (and throw a few primaries in as well).

Still 150+ CTs is a hell of an investment :D . (Oh my dear lord economist could you set aside funds for 150 corvettes :( ) :D .
tmul4050
Commander
Commander
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun 27 Dec 2009 20:28

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Tue 15 Jan 2013 09:09

tmul4050 wrote:I think it would also depend on if the defenders have escorts (units with point defense or even anti fighter missiles) seeded in amongst the swarm. I suppose it would depend on how much lead time and information the defender had.

I may be wrong, as I cannot find my rulebook but a CT could have 4 point defense, and still have max speed. Laser armed CTs would be bad, Force beams would be worse (and throw a few primaries in as well).

Still 150+ CTs is a hell of an investment :D . (Oh my dear lord economist could you set aside funds for 150 corvettes :( ) :D .


Actually, when I was talking about laser armed CT swarms, I was thinking of low TL races who were limited to lasers, and for whom swarms were about the only effective defense possible. And I'm not entirely sure that I'd say that force beam armed swarms would be better in this particular defensive strategy. There's something to be said for being able to ignore Shields, particularly when you're talking about larger attackers. When the attackers start getting smaller with fewer shields, then perhaps Force Beams are a better choice. They're certainly a better choice for an assaulting counter swarm, if you know that you're going to be shooting at CT's.

If the defender is high enough TL to already have AFM's, etc. then there are probably other, better options for WP defense. The CTL swarm is more of a very low TL strategy.



As for the idea of arming CT's with point defense, if you know for certain that you'll be facing fighters, then that's definitely a worthy tactic. OTOH, that's sort of an "all or nothing" strategy, since such a design would be toothless against anything else.

I do agree that once you reach TL5, primary armed swarmers can be a really, really nasty surprise, though they are rather expensive and can only fire every other turn.

One thing I've learned is that when you're talking about a low TL defender, quantity is more important than quality, because "quality" at something like TL2 isn't going to be all that impressive and isn't going to kill ships fast enough to matter. Instead, quantity has a quality all its own, because it can turn the transit penalties against the attacker. That is, since multiplex tracking is down on the turn of transit, having lots of small ships makes it much more difficult for the attacker to deal with multiple targets, if he's using large assault ships. That is, because there's a -4 die roll penalty for attacking more than 1 ship when multiplex tracking is down, dealing with a WP defense swarm is extremely difficult for an attacker using traditional large assault ships.
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Tue 15 Jan 2013 09:15

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:Agreed. It's a case where the difference of a single TL makes a big difference. In fact, one might argue that at TL8 with only fR available for offensive use, the attacker might be better off saving his carriers and fighters for later, and using some other assault tactic ... such as a simultaneous assault with a counter swarm.


If the attacker has his own swarm CT's available and in range to make a difference I would agree. The problem is that the defender is usually going to have shorter lines to the front and in a smaller empire less systems to defend so they can concentrate faster. The other issue is how close the attacker is to getting fL compared to the defender bringing up primary armed swarms. I for one would be willing to lake losses in my initial waves if I can crush a swarm. Remember that the defender may be unable to quickly replace their losses.



Yes, there are a lot of factors. Honestly though, even if fL was available, if I *knew* that I was going up against a low TL race using a CTL swarm, I might choose to *not* lead the assault with my carriers. If I had the time and money to build a decent CT assault force, I might just do it. It wouldn't need to be big enough to win the battle, I'm thinking. But if you could send thru enough, hopefully in a simultaneous transit, to make life miserable for the defender, you could use the diversion to start sending through regular warships and even some carriers and buy some time to allow them to survive the transit turn. Once you can do that, the attacker's chances go up significantly, I'm thinking.
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 15 Jan 2013 09:57

The problem is that with the proposed simultaneous transit rules, you may not get enough of your counter swarm in to be effective. The small size of the counter swarm ships also makes them vulnerable to L unless they have improved armor. At least the carriers may survive with a decent number of bays intact.
Charles Rosenberg.

Alexei Timoshenko is the name of my protagonist in the fanfics, although I wish it could have been me.
AlexeiTimoshenko
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010 21:16
Location: Baltimore MD

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Tue 15 Jan 2013 10:38

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:The problem is that with the proposed simultaneous transit rules, you may not get enough of your counter swarm in to be effective. The small size of the counter swarm ships also makes them vulnerable to L unless they have improved armor. At least the carriers may survive with a decent number of bays intact.


You misunderstood. Those rules I think you're thinking of were the "safe" ST rules. The highly risky ST rules will probably be similar to those that already exist. There's probably nothing stopping you from dumping thru a hundred counter swarm CT's, as long as you're willing to lose some in the process.

As for vulnerability, any swarm ship is vulnerable to just about anything. And the survivability of the carriers is pretty much dictated by one thing and one thing only. How many swarmer CTL's are available to start the battle.

Another thing to consider... We mentioned TL8 vs. TL9. Under the existing 3E rules, at TL9 (IIRC), the first gen missile pods show up, and they are the ultimate anti-swarm weapon, at least as long as you know what to program them to attack.
User avatar
Crucis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27

Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 15 Jan 2013 17:04

Crucis wrote:You misunderstood. Those rules I think you're thinking of were the "safe" ST rules. The highly risky ST rules will probably be similar to those that already exist. There's probably nothing stopping you from dumping thru a hundred counter swarm CT's, as long as you're willing to lose some in the process.


That's a big difference. A race willing to take losses could easily swamp a swarm defense. Just run enough hulls through the wp in each wave to gut the defenses before they all are activated.

Crucis wrote:Another thing to consider... We mentioned TL8 vs. TL9. Under the existing 3E rules, at TL9 (IIRC), the first gen missile pods show up, and they are the ultimate anti-swarm weapon, at least as long as you know what to program them to attack.


You're right. First gen pods are HT9. How quickly they show up may depend on a races development priorities.
Charles Rosenberg.

Alexei Timoshenko is the name of my protagonist in the fanfics, although I wish it could have been me.
AlexeiTimoshenko
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010 21:16
Location: Baltimore MD

PreviousNext

Return to Cosmic Starfire

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron