Warp Points, Take 2

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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby Crucis on Tue 15 Jan 2013 09:29

tmul4050 wrote:just back onto warp points, I take it that yellow and orange stars are +0 for warp points.


Yes, star types between White and Red do not have any modifier to the # of WP's die roll. Neither do White Dwarfs. (WD's are a lot more massive than people realize. Their mass is around that of a Orange or Yellow star.)



Also if you did include black holes (as discussed earlier) would you treat them as neutron stars?
Does being binary or trinary system have an effect?



Honestly, I've been leaning against doing black holes differently. But if I did include a survivable black hole situation, then yes they'd probably be WP magnets.

As for binary/trinary systems, I've been leaning towards NOT having them have any impact because normal stars between White and Red don't really increase a multiple star system's overall mass significantly.



Also in that super nova event you were talking about was that simply moving the WP of nearby stars or doing a reboot (so to speak) for each affected system?


More of a "reboot" as you put it. The WP's that connected to the system where the supernova took place will be disrupted for an unknown length of time, IIRC. However, there may be some new WP connections formed in other nearby (astronomically speaking) systems into The Expanse.
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Tue 15 Jan 2013 09:51

tmul4050 wrote:A 300 HS warship is plenty big enough. And I think they are dangerous enough to satisfy most players anyway.
I can remember when SD at 130 Hs were scary enough. I was playing one of the last scenarios in the first ISW in which the Khanate had SDs and we (the terrans) didn't. I was running a pair of force beam DDs and the admiral (the player in charge of our fleet) told me to go head to head with one. The SD was so busy hitting BB's with lots of missles I got to hit him with 8 force beams at close range. And got away. The SD was cactus after that (sorry, cactus is an australian term for wreaked). Ah memories.
Still my point is that big ships are scary but their design and the skill (or luck in my case) of the player can reduce any ship to expensive junk. One reason I like starfire.
Although as noted several time above they are really useful for warp point assaults.


I've played that scenario several times. The Terrans have a slight HS advantage as well as a speed advantage due to their lighter hulls. In most cases the Terrans wind up with a crippled but intact battleline while the Khanate is reduced to scrap.
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby tmul4050 on Tue 15 Jan 2013 21:50

Its a good scenario. According to the history the Khanate lost bad, as it was a strategic mistake. From that point the khanate lost the war, though there were still a few battles.
Just a thought. Those scenarios in the ISW 1, 2, 3, also in the gorm war and the theban war were designed with the original tech. Things like a max vessel speed of 6 and point defense was completely diferent. Are the scenarios to be updated in Cosmic. Might be worth another discussion topic. :)
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby Crucis on Tue 15 Jan 2013 22:41

tmul4050 wrote:Its a good scenario. According to the history the Khanate lost bad, as it was a strategic mistake. From that point the khanate lost the war, though there were still a few battles.
Just a thought. Those scenarios in the ISW 1, 2, 3, also in the gorm war and the theban war were designed with the original tech. Things like a max vessel speed of 6 and point defense was completely different. Are the scenarios to be updated in Cosmic. Might be worth another discussion topic. :)


Indeed. Those scenario modules were very much designed with unrevised 3E in mind. Furthermore, the novels were written with unrevised 3E in mind, which accounts for many of the differences in performance and outcomes between the battles described in the novels and the scenarios, particular in the ISW4 scenario module written using 3rdR.


As for whether the scenario modules would be updated for Cosmic, let's just worry about that bridge when we come to it.
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Wed 16 Jan 2013 06:11

Crucis wrote:
tmul4050 wrote:Its a good scenario. According to the history the Khanate lost bad, as it was a strategic mistake. From that point the khanate lost the war, though there were still a few battles.
Just a thought. Those scenarios in the ISW 1, 2, 3, also in the gorm war and the theban war were designed with the original tech. Things like a max vessel speed of 6 and point defense was completely different. Are the scenarios to be updated in Cosmic. Might be worth another discussion topic. :)


Indeed. Those scenario modules were very much designed with unrevised 3E in mind. Furthermore, the novels were written with unrevised 3E in mind, which accounts for many of the differences in performance and outcomes between the battles described in the novels and the scenarios, particular in the ISW4 scenario module written using 3rdR.


As for whether the scenario modules would be updated for Cosmic, let's just worry about that bridge when we come to it.


The ships bases and space stations were updated in the 3rdR rulebook. The scenarios themselves were not changed.
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby tmul4050 on Wed 16 Jan 2013 09:51

I have seen updated vessel stats for SAW and Crusade, but the revised rules can add a different tempo to the scenarios. For example if destroyers can move a speed 7 some of the retreat scenarios could be diferent as it is now possible for DDs to catch up to the retreating BCs. Im not saying thats a good idea but it changes the tactical approach. Shoot up the destroyers and don't shoot the SDs. Ignore the DDs and risk the possiblility of a close engagement.
Still it would be hard on the destroyers. ;)
BTW I tried to use galactic Starfire with its nearly useless fighters in some ISW scenarios and gave up in disgust. Those rules really nerfed fighters to the point that they seemed a waste of money. Like most of the rest of the rules though. :)
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby Crucis on Wed 16 Jan 2013 14:43

tmul4050 wrote:I have seen updated vessel stats for SAW and Crusade, but the revised rules can add a different tempo to the scenarios. For example if destroyers can move a speed 7 some of the retreat scenarios could be diferent as it is now possible for DDs to catch up to the retreating BCs. Im not saying thats a good idea but it changes the tactical approach. Shoot up the destroyers and don't shoot the SDs. Ignore the DDs and risk the possiblility of a close engagement.
Still it would be hard on the destroyers. ;)


Yes, I agree that the 3rdR changes can affect how the scenarios play out. The point about the speed changes for DD's and below is a good one. But also included is the inclusion of Dz at TL7 and the changes to the rules covering Dx. I know that players noticed the change in Dx when they compared the results from playing the early ISW4 scenarios vs the historical outcomes described in the novels.

Another change that has unforeseen effects was the nerfing of Improved Multiplex. Its original design was such that you could have any amount of increments of Mix, as long as you were willing to pay the hefty cost. The nerfing was that it became limited to Mi1 at TL9 and +1 every TL or 2 thereafter. The unforeseen effect was that it really killed the performance of SBM's to the point that SBMs become largely useless outside of 30 tac hexes, i.e. in the ranges where it had supposedly gained some range over CM's. The thing is though that the Mix nerfing wasn't that bad an idea on its own merits. So, to recover what was lost for SBM's it will be necessary to improve its to-hit line.

The process for using point defense was changed, and probably for the better, though I think that it could use some tweaking to better mimic the outcomes that the old PD process would produce.


There may be other examples of how 3rdR tweaks produced unintended consequences, but at the moment, I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Wed 16 Jan 2013 16:46

One issue I see with CM vs SBM is the overall to hit numbers. In 3rd SBM had slightly better base numbers at some ranges as well at the inherent longer range. In 3rdR CM has the better overall numbers both in to hit and the D intercept modifier
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby Crucis on Wed 16 Jan 2013 17:13

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:One issue I see with CM vs SBM is the overall to hit numbers. In 3rd SBM had slightly better base numbers at some ranges as well at the inherent longer range. In 3rdR CM has the better overall numbers both in to hit and the D intercept modifier


The SBM was better at ranges 21 (7 vs 6), 26 (6 vs 5), and 29-30 (5/5 vs 4/3). And of course, it had the extended range from 31-40 and that hokey loiter mode stuff.

Frankly, I don't like the SBM as is, and intend to replace is with a straight up "next generation" CM. The Terrans can call it the SBM. ;) But for the purposes of the rules, it'll just be a next gen CM.


I should say though that this is getting rather far afield from the thread's topic. ;)
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Re: Warp Points, Take 2

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Wed 16 Jan 2013 17:21

Getting back to the topic at hand, will there be any sort of cap on the number of hulls that can make an unsafe ST?
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