Type V worlds in other locations?

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Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby Crucis on Thu 10 Jan 2013 14:45

Simple question: Are Type V worlds in the Habitable Zone or Outer Rocky Zone possible?

Discuss.
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby Cralis on Fri 11 Jan 2013 00:06

If the gravity high enough, the atmosphere dense enough and made of the right chemicals, sure... I think it's possible. No where near as likely, but possible.

And whether or not we agree that Io is a mass 0 Type-V, if it was at least mass 1 with an atmosphere, I'm sure we could agree it would be :)
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby Vandervecken on Fri 11 Jan 2013 02:26

I listened to a panel at a gaming convention many years ago. The main topic was something like "Making a scientifically accurate fictional world'. There were professors from universities and someone related to NASA and/or JPL on the 5 man panel. It got side-tracked into a discussion on Venus type worlds as a writer in the audiance attending the panel wanted to know if something like Venus could form about where Mars is. One of the panel members said he certainly thought that it was possible (didn't state anything on how probable) and gave the line I paraphrased in the Sysgen Oddities forum. He said that "The surface temperature may be only 350 or 500 degrees, but you wouldn't need an oven to bake a cake there." Another person on the panel said that " the further out (from the sun) you are, the gasses that got you to the runaway Greenhouse effect would probably begin differently than Venus did, but often would lead to the same end." <Note: not an exact quote> Since the question was answered affirmatively twice, that was the extent of the conversation before they took another question. It was a great seminar, as most of the panel time was spent answering questions from writers and at least 1 from a "Game designer", me.

As for type V worlds in the habitable zone; Cryro-freeze yourself for a thousand years and when you thaw you might see a world building its way to that status right here in your old backyard. :shock: How common this could happen with/without a civiliazation kick-starting it, I just don't know; but a potential SysGen Oddity, definately.
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby Crucis on Fri 11 Jan 2013 03:04

Vandervecken wrote:I listened to a panel at a gaming convention many years ago. The main topic was something like "Making a scientifically accurate fictional world'. There were professors from universities and someone related to NASA and/or JPL on the 5 man panel. It got side-tracked into a discussion on Venus type worlds as a writer in the audiance attending the panel wanted to know if something like Venus could form about where Mars is. One of the panel members said he certainly thought that it was possible (didn't state anything on how probable) and gave the line I paraphrased in the Sysgen Oddities forum. He said that "The surface temperature may be only 350 or 500 degrees, but you wouldn't need an oven to bake a cake there." Another person on the panel said that " the further out (from the sun) you are, the gasses that got you to the runaway Greenhouse effect would probably begin differently than Venus did, but often would lead to the same end." <Note: not an exact quote> Since the question was answered affirmatively twice, that was the extent of the conversation before they took another question. It was a great seminar, as most of the panel time was spent answering questions from writers and at least 1 from a "Game designer", me.


OK, that sounds good enough to me.


As for type V worlds in the habitable zone; Cryro-freeze yourself for a thousand years and when you thaw you might see a world building its way to that status right here in your old backyard. :shock: How common this could happen with/without a civilization kick-starting it, I just don't know; but a potential SysGen Oddity, definitely.


Well, I suppose that any number of natural factors could conspire to make it happen. Maybe an asteroid(s) strike causing a great increase in volcanic activity. Maybe some sort of event that caused the planet to slow its rotation and its core down, and eventually leading to a loss of the magnetosphere, and then the bleeding off of some important gases leading to a runaway greenhouse effect. Maybe a planet in the HZ without a significant moon to provide some tidal effects might have some negative effects, such as the tidal effects having an impact on core rotation and thus the magsphere.

Regardless, as low probability oddball situations, I think that it's reasonable.

BTW, if Venus had had a significant moon, like Earth has Luna, would it be a different place today? Would such a moon have helped the planet retain an active core and a protective magsphere and hence retained a less hostile atmosphere? And if so, what would such a place have looked like? A m2 or m3 Type H planet with a nasty (i.e. non-O-N) atmosphere that was a dry hell hole, but colonizable? Possibly, I suppose. In truth, that's a bit more detail than I want to go into for a world that wouldn't be even marginally habitable.

This is probably beyond the scope of the detail of the game, but would it be possible for there to be a Type M marginal planet in the IRZ Inner Rocky Zone), close to the HZ boundary? I can see as how it probably wouldn't be possible across the entire IRZ, but close to the inner HZ boundary? I suppose that the big difference between a IRZ type M and an ORZ Type M, is that the potential ORZ Type M has water that hasn't been boiled away whereas a theoretical IRZ Type M might be Arrakis on steroids...
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 11 Jan 2013 05:55

While it wouldn't be a type V in the classic sense, what about planets with extremely dense atmospheres composed of things other than O-N or CO2? Say pressures 20+ bar. Remember that the farther out you go, the colder the ambient temperature will be. Perhaps a planet with an ammonia or halogen based atmosphere.
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby Vandervecken on Fri 11 Jan 2013 06:01

I'd say that any Rocky type 2 or 3 world in the 2nd half of the IRZ has a small chance of being a Type M world (unless tidelocked of course). The chances should go up from negligible to minor as you get closer to the HZ boundary. But this is just my opinion from studying astronomy and games with astronomy rules; with no hard science to back up my claims.

I think that if I had the 4rd Ed. of GURPS Space here at work, I might be able to do some calculations. 4th Ed. often (but not always) has more detailed tables but with 3rd Ed. GURPS Space, it was usually easier to put together a system.
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby tmul4050 on Fri 11 Jan 2013 06:25

Considering the weird worlds being found by astronomers maybe the V class world type should be expanded to include other types. Call them "I" worlds (inhospitable) ;)
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby Vandervecken on Fri 11 Jan 2013 06:27

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote: Perhaps a planet with an ammonia or halogen based atmosphere.



As long as there are only N - O breathing races, these possible planets could be considered type V worlds. But my Venus-phile Hive race for my Solo game couldn't call them home. Those possible planets would need a new designation if you allowed alternate chemistry races (and a possible new race type to boot) into your game whether playing Cosmic/Ultra/3rd/SOLAR.

My 6th version of my own game had an Ammoniod race type that primarily came from about 10% of the super-earths, but occasionally could inhabit some Earth-ish sized worlds (I think about 2.0 or 2.5%) that generally were considered to come from much younger worlds than our own planet or had no Big moon equivalent.
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby Crucis on Fri 11 Jan 2013 13:27

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:While it wouldn't be a type V in the classic sense, what about planets with extremely dense atmospheres composed of things other than O-N or CO2? Say pressures 20+ bar. Remember that the farther out you go, the colder the ambient temperature will be. Perhaps a planet with an ammonia or halogen based atmosphere.


I don't particularly see the reason for such a planet type other than scenery, unless one is using unusual races, which is not my intent. As it is, I'm starting to question whether my own Type GD "Gas Dwarf" planet type is worth including, because it is so functionally like a Type V, i.e. totally uninhabitable, and only usable as a place for moons.

At least with my new Type M "Marginal" planet, it serves a distinct and useful purpose in game terms, i.e. as a bucket for planets having extremely marginal but habitable environments. Tidelocked planets, possibly very young planets, possibly very rare planets in the IRZ and ORZ meeting certain conditions.

At the moment, I can't think of any other potential new, realistic planet types that would be useful within the game.
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Re: Type V worlds in other locations?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 11 Jan 2013 23:23

The problem is that most of the potential planet types that we come up with will be little more than scenery other then their moons. Planets with atmospheres other than O-N based will most likely be uninhabitable for sentient life as we know it.
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