The Price of Destiny

Starfire campaign histories, fan fiction, and talking about fiction.

Moderators: SDS Members, SDS Owner

Forum rules
Please post new fiction in a separate thread. The search engine can find all related fiction. Have fun! Just let us know who wins.

1. Nothing obscene.
2. No advertising or spamming.
3. No personal information. Mostly aimed at the posting of OTHER people's information.
4. No flame wars. We encourage debate, but it becomes a flame when insults fly and tempers flare.

Any Starfire-related fiction and campaign-related materials are welcomed here. Player submissions in this forum are the property and responsibility of the author.

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby PracticalM on Sun 01 Mar 2015 19:29

Lomn wrote:
Cralis wrote:You literally have to have no SL or Tech Item projects that weren't started this month, for this to happen. You had that happen?
Yep. For the tech item part, though, it's really tough to have an independent tech item project running in the first 4 months, since all your items are fully researched to starting SLs. Early combo projects are a different matter, but they can't be accelerated.


If this is something that changed in Solar, I don't think it is a good idea, you can always apply the breakthrough to accelerate any existing science project. Breakthroughs are never lost or should never be.
--
Jeffrey Kessler
PracticalM
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed 15 Jul 2009 10:27
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby Vandervecken on Sun 01 Mar 2015 21:17

PracticalM wrote:If this is something that changed in Solar, I don't think it is a good idea, you can always apply the breakthrough to accelerate any existing science project. Breakthroughs are never lost or should never be.


But that was the problem, PracticalM ! It didn't change in SOLAR Starfire.

The empire in question does not have ANY existing science projects, the empire probably went 100% into empire pop/economy growth mode in the first few turns to get an economic leg up on the others and paid for it by missing a breakthrough opportunity. It's not catastrophic to that empire at all, just a missed opportunity. So cadets, if you are going to do breakthrough rolls at you S.A., always have at least 1 R&D project going as well. Otherwise there is a small chance of this scenario happening.
I weary of the chasssse. Wait for me. I will be mercccciful and quick.
User avatar
Vandervecken
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2012 20:21
Location: Minnesnowta

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby Cralis on Mon 02 Mar 2015 02:14

Vandervecken wrote:
PracticalM wrote:If this is something that changed in Solar, I don't think it is a good idea, you can always apply the breakthrough to accelerate any existing science project. Breakthroughs are never lost or should never be.


But that was the problem, PracticalM ! It didn't change in SOLAR Starfire.


Van is 100% correct. This can ALSO happen in both GALACTIC STARFIRE and ULTRA STARFIRE.

So cadets, if you are going to do breakthrough rolls at you S.A., always have at least 1 R&D project going as well. Otherwise there is a small chance of this scenario happening.


I was going to say if you don't have any projects, don't try for any breakthroughs. But you could still use them to open branches and knots, so you might still want to have the chance. OTH, I don't think I'd ever have a turn without at least _one_ project going. I (you) never seem get through all of the projects I want done, no matter how many I'm doing at once...
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 10197
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby Lomn on Mon 02 Mar 2015 11:29

Oh, hey, traffic on this thread.

Anyway, yes, I'm completely in agreement with Vand on this one: have at least one SL project up and running before you start doing breakthrough R&D. SL R&D is really cheap (a standard "Research SL 2 @ EL 2" starting project is only 30 MCr / month, and that assumes you're going full-rate -- you don't even have to do that much).

In particular, I advise starting a project that is itself a prerequisite for an important knot, because you really want more than the first couple (AP Tree, T SL 2) that default to all empires before hitting random breakthroughs. Prime candidates are Elec SL 2 (to reach the Elec SL 3 knot) and Y SL 2 (to reach the Yc branch knot).

Other early options with concrete objectives include:
Smcft SL 2 (because Smcft is loaded with tech)
K SL 2 (for Kb at SL 2)
L SL 2 (for Lb at SL 2)
Pt SL 2 (for Pg branch knot)
R SL 2 (for R SL 3 knot)
X SL 2 (to push towards better WP surveys)

Many of those, though, are IMO better suited for combo projects (Elec + M2/(CNCa), Smcft + (Bsb), K + Kb, L + Lb). But Y SL 2 and the access to Yc is critical for everybody, and it should be up and running pronto. R or Pt, if you've got them, are also good as there's no combo option there, either.
User avatar
Lomn
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue 30 Oct 2012 08:19
Location: MSFC, Alabama

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby PracticalM on Sat 07 Mar 2015 17:45

In ultra any unsuccessful breakthrough can convert a critical or hazardous project. There doesn't seem to be a requirement for this project to be active. This is the same in the Solar rules that I have.
--
Jeffrey Kessler
PracticalM
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed 15 Jul 2009 10:27
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby Cralis on Sun 08 Mar 2015 06:35

PracticalM wrote:In ultra any unsuccessful breakthrough can convert a critical or hazardous project. There doesn't seem to be a requirement for this project to be active. This is the same in the Solar rules that I have.


Hmmm... that's an interesting read on the rules. And based on the wording, you may be absolutely right. I've always taken the rule to mean "active project", but looking at (B), it's obvious that when this rule means "active" is specifically says so.

I'm actually good with this. BUT, I would think that this would have to be a project you have access to research. For example, this brand-new race could not apply this breakthrough against SL5 Rc research. Do you agree PracticalM?
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 10197
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby thebard on Mon 09 Mar 2015 14:05

Interesting how the rules are written in this part - it seems to me that the rules say that the player can choose where to apply this breakthrough (options C and D) convert Critical or Hazardous development (rule 11.03). There is no explicit limitation in this rule, although we have the "limit of 3 levels" and 11.04.01 says "cannot open a new tree this way". Also breakthroughs must be used on the month that they are generated.

Capital Sensors is a branch, not a tree, so there is no limitation to opening this SL3 branch when I'm EL2.
Convert a critical project to a normal project implies that the project has to exist (a project with zero RP is canceled, so ceases) and as the breakthrough has to be applied on the month that it is generated, it seems that
the breakthrough ends up lost - unless, of cause, the SM decides to "save it" and help out with some surprise RP's
later on in the game as a compensation (he writes, crossing his fingers).


(the more astute should now be adding 2 and 2 . . . . . )
thebard
Commander
Commander
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon 08 Sep 2014 08:47

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby PracticalM on Sat 14 Mar 2015 00:04

I'm probably too lenient because if you are using a breakthrough to change a critical or hazardous you are already not making best use of your breakthrough. I would allow it to affect any project within 3EL. A breakthrough that makes it easier when you actually get there.
--
Jeffrey Kessler
PracticalM
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed 15 Jul 2009 10:27
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby Cralis on Sat 14 Mar 2015 01:05

thebard wrote:Interesting how the rules are written in this part - it seems to me that the rules say that the player can choose where to apply this breakthrough (options C and D) convert Critical or Hazardous development (rule 11.03). There is no explicit limitation in this rule, although we have the "limit of 3 levels" and 11.04.01 says "cannot open a new tree this way". Also breakthroughs must be used on the month that they are generated.


The player can choose the order to attempt to use this breakthrough, yes. But it's not guaranteed to work out the way he wants...

Capital Sensors is a branch, not a tree, so there is no limitation to opening this SL3 branch when I'm EL2.


Other than the explicit requirement of SL2 Y and EL 1, listed right under the technology heading.

The only difference between a tree and a branch is that a tree is the "first" and branches "branch off" from the tree. Otherwise they are treated the same (with very, very few exceptions).

Convert a critical project to a normal project implies that the project has to exist (a project with zero RP is canceled, so ceases) and as the breakthrough has to be applied on the month that it is generated, it seems that the breakthrough ends up lost - unless, of cause, the SM decides to "save it" and help out with some surprise RP's later on in the game as a compensation (he writes, crossing his fingers).


I wouldn't support that.

HOWEVER, today at work I thought of an interesting idea. What if a breakthrough that would otherwise be lost, was instead converted into a 1 Free EL RP. It isn't acceleration (aka it does NOT give you an extra 11th RP) so it can only replace one of the 10 RP that you can normally purchase. So it's not a huge boost, but it's a tiny one as a consolation prize for missing your breakthrough opportunities...

(the more astute should now be adding 2 and 2 . . . . . )


Shouldn't you be avoiding fingering yourself on this one? :lol:

PracticalM wrote:I'm probably too lenient because if you are using a breakthrough to change a critical or hazardous you are already not making best use of your breakthrough. I would allow it to affect any project within 3EL. A breakthrough that makes it easier when you actually get there.


That's a possibility as well. But honestly, if we explicitly allow this, I'd rather it be explicitly stated in your breakthrough objectives list. Not "pick one because you failed to pick anything" ...
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 10197
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: The Price of Destiny

Postby Vandervecken on Sat 14 Mar 2015 07:33

I'm a harsh bastard sometimes, especially in my Solo campaigns, but ..

Cralis wrote:What if a breakthrough that would otherwise be lost, was instead converted into a 1 Free EL RP. It isn't acceleration (aka it does NOT give you an extra 11th RP) so it can only replace one of the 10 RP that you can normally purchase. So it's not a huge boost, but it's a tiny one as a consolation prize for missing your breakthrough opportunities...


sounds like a nice CONCRETE rule to end the breakthrough ladder. Bravo!
I weary of the chasssse. Wait for me. I will be mercccciful and quick.
User avatar
Vandervecken
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2012 20:21
Location: Minnesnowta

Previous

Return to Starfire Fiction

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron