Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

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Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby SCC on Mon 11 Feb 2019 23:53

OK, looking ahead I've got a weird case on refitting ships engines. If I want to refit a ship that has Ica engines with Ia engines, do I pay the class fee? They're different sizes but it feels really weird.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby krenshala on Tue 12 Feb 2019 18:47

M3.06.3 (pg 105) has what you are looking for. Based on the way it reads, since Ic and I are different trees it would require the Prototype fee to be added to the refit cost (so refit cost * 1.2 [or whichever option you are using from M1.03.5.1 (pg 103)]).
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby Cralis on Tue 12 Feb 2019 20:00

SCC wrote:OK, looking ahead I've got a weird case on refitting ships engines. If I want to refit a ship that has Ica engines with Ia engines, do I pay the class fee? They're different sizes but it feels really weird.


Remember that drives are not a black-box system. Like Q or Y or AC, the drive code (I, Ic, J, etc.) represents only a portion of the complete “system” that stretches through the ship. Drives, for example, cover the power generation, DF projection, propulsion, steering, inertial dampening, structural, safety, and other systs required for their operation. The system on the Ship Control Sheet merely represents how much damage it can take based on the overall size of the mounted drive(s).

So yes, changing drives should change the class because you are actually making huge changes to a lot of the ship.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby Xveers on Tue 12 Feb 2019 21:49

Cralis wrote:Remember that drives are not a black-box system. Like Q or Y or AC, the drive code (I, Ic, J, etc.) represents only a portion of the complete “system” that stretches through the ship. Drives, for example, cover the power generation, DF projection, propulsion, steering, inertial dampening, structural, safety, and other systs required for their operation. The system on the Ship Control Sheet merely represents how much damage it can take based on the overall size of the mounted drive(s).


Just to interject on this... It's best to think of every onboard ship component in terms of "Slices" (stolen from GURPS Traveller ship design), where any component not just represents that specific system, but also slices of other systems that don't have a component on their own. So a 2 HS Ica isn't just 2 HS of engine. That 2 HS also has slices of the ship's main power plant, some crew quarters, maybe three or four chairs in the mess hall, a small onboard machine shop, control runs, a portion of the ship's main structural keel, and so on. So in practice you might actually have 1 HS of actual bona-fide engine, and 1 HS of "Stuff" that's needed to help that engine work.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby SCC on Tue 12 Feb 2019 21:56

krenshala wrote:M3.06.3 (pg 105) has what you are looking for. Based on the way it reads, since Ic and I are different trees it would require the Prototype fee to be added to the refit cost (so refit cost * 1.2 [or whichever option you are using from M1.03.5.1 (pg 103)]).


Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:OK, looking ahead I've got a weird case on refitting ships engines. If I want to refit a ship that has Ica engines with Ia engines, do I pay the class fee? They're different sizes but it feels really weird.


Remember that drives are not a black-box system. Like Q or Y or AC, the drive code (I, Ic, J, etc.) represents only a portion of the complete “system” that stretches through the ship. Drives, for example, cover the power generation, DF projection, propulsion, steering, inertial dampening, structural, safety, and other systs required for their operation. The system on the Ship Control Sheet merely represents how much damage it can take based on the overall size of the mounted drive(s).

So yes, changing drives should change the class because you are actually making huge changes to a lot of the ship.

Ic isn't a BRANCH it's a TWIGG, so per M3.06.3 Class Fees don't apply if the two systems are the same size, but in cases like this where the size ratio is 2:1 it should apply but is something of a head scratcher.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby Cralis on Tue 12 Feb 2019 22:51

SCC wrote:Ic isn't a BRANCH it's a TWIGG, so per M3.06.3 Class Fees don't apply if the two systems are the same size, but in cases like this where the size ratio is 2:1 it should apply but is something of a head scratcher.


You're reading M3.06.3 backwards.

It says that "...replace systems from the same tech branch with another system of the same size in HS are a Minor Refit and do not have to pay the Class Unit Fee..."

You will pay the class fee on two counts:

first, as you point out it's a twig, not a branch, and therefore cannot be considered part of the same branch;
and second, it's not the same size. It doesn't say anything about sizes being multiples or divisible by. And I gave you the reasoning above.

In fact, you got me thinking that drives should always be major refits...
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby SCC on Wed 13 Feb 2019 02:20

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:Ic isn't a BRANCH it's a TWIGG, so per M3.06.3 Class Fees don't apply if the two systems are the same size, but in cases like this where the size ratio is 2:1 it should apply but is something of a head scratcher.


You're reading M3.06.3 backwards.

It says that "...replace systems from the same tech branch with another system of the same size in HS are a Minor Refit and do not have to pay the Class Unit Fee..."

You will pay the class fee on two counts:

first, as you point out it's a twig, not a branch, and therefore cannot be considered part of the same branch;
and second, it's not the same size. It doesn't say anything about sizes being multiples or divisible by. And I gave you the reasoning above.

In fact, you got me thinking that drives should always be major refits...

Cralis, items in twigs are still considered the parent branch, that's part of why it's called a twig, so I can for example refit between Ra and Rra without paying refitting fees.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby Cralis on Wed 13 Feb 2019 17:46

You really want me to turn that into a branch, ja?
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby SCC on Wed 13 Feb 2019 23:51

Cralis wrote:You really want me to turn that into a branch, ja?

But Ja is already in a different Branch, from I at least.

Jokes aside are you talking about Rr or Ic?

And the idea that engines are special because their not a single hunk of machinery and thus should get special refit costs is problematic because:
1. It should also apply to any system that manipulates a ships DF, potentially including F and T
2. Several other systems by their vary nature are also distributed like this, X, Y and Q spring to mind immediately.
3. Your argument assumes that the parts of the engine distributed through out the ship are accounted for in the HS assigned to the engine systems instead of being part of the fabric of the ship's hull, which seems more likely given how things work.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby Cralis on Thu 14 Feb 2019 01:06

SCC wrote:
Cralis wrote:You really want me to turn that into a branch, ja?

But Ja is already in a different Branch, from I at least.

Jokes aside are you talking about Rr or Ic?


"Ja" is yes in German.

And the idea that engines are special because their not a single hunk of machinery and thus should get special refit costs is problematic because:
1. It should also apply to any system that manipulates a ships DF, potentially including F and T
2. Several other systems by their vary nature are also distributed like this, X, Y and Q spring to mind immediately.
3. Your argument assumes that the parts of the engine distributed through out the ship are accounted for in the HS assigned to the engine systems instead of being part of the fabric of the ship's hull, which seems more likely given how things work.


Your first point doesn't make any sense, it lacks a huge amount of context and gives examples of self-contained systems. I gave you three other examples of systems that represent a damageable portion of much larger super-sets of internal sub-systems in a ship. And by internal sub-systems I directly stated that they were distributed through-out a portion or the whole of the ship. You are simply re-stating what I've already stated and giving some additional examples that are nothing of the sort.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is, nor why you are making it.

Today we can't even swap a gasoline engine for a diesel engine or an electric engine in a car without refitting the components and body of the vehicle. Why would we be able to replace something like a starship's drive system -- especially one that contains so many sub-systems so widely distributed around the entire ship -- and expect it to be less of a refit?
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