Problem with Example M1.03.1

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Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby SCC on Sun 01 Sep 2013 06:49

Ok, first off the extra capacity available at the end of the 3rd month? The 160 value looks to be correct, but then it goes on to say that only projects 14HS in size can be started? Shouldn't that be 16HS?

Secondly if I've read the rules right the example goes about building those ships the long way. 4 DD's are 120 HS, which means that 4 can be completed in a month with 20 HS worth of work completed on a fifth, then the completed units bonus gives me another 16HS worth of work, the 5th can be completed with 6HS done on the 6th.

Next month it's pretty simpler except that it only takes 114 HS of work to complete the next 4 ships (6-9) leaving 26 HS work done one number 10 before the 16HS bonus comes in, meaning all ten ships can be completed in 2 months with 12 HS to spare
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby procyon on Sun 01 Sep 2013 07:49

I think you may be confused between the total work a comples can complete vs what each SY can do.
A SS with 10 SY that can build 14 HS each a month can't churn out four 30 HS DD's a month.
Each DD is assigned to a specific SY. So if that SS/SY had an order for a single DD, one of the SY would start work and finish 14 HS in the first month while the other 9 sit idle.

On the bonus HS, my group doesn't use it so I am not well versed in its nuances.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby Vandervecken on Sun 01 Sep 2013 08:16

procyon wrote:I think you may be confused between the total work a comples can complete vs what each SY can do.A SS with 10 SY that can build 14 HS each a month can't churn out four 30 HS DD's a month.Each DD is assigned to a specific SY. So if that SS/SY had an order for a single DD, one of the SY would start work and finish 14 HS in the first month while the other 9 sit idle.


That's how I've been playing it. Each (SY) is a separate slip/slot/dock or whatever. I think the crux of the matter comes from:

M1.03.1 - Capacity
After the movement phase of each month, the construction complex does up to its build rate HS of work on each of its projects. And the definition of project is per: M1.03 - Using Construction Complexes
A project is defined as all work on one single unit ordered and paid for at the same time.

But ... I keep re-reading the rules and think that something possibly has changed in the last 20 or so years. and that maybe in Ultra and Solar that 4 x DD could be completed in one turn (120 HS of work at a 140 HS capacity shipyard Complex), and that the example has only 14 HS being done on each of the 10 DD's is because all the (SY) are filled with projects. AACK, if that is true. An example where the SY Complex is not at full 10 x project capacity would solve most ambiguities in interpreting these rules. There seems to be a chunk of rules that deal with Complex capacity that are over emphasized if you can't add more than 1 (SY) together to work on a project. So right now I don't know which is right. Why would you have 2 x (SYM) freighters come together as a complex if each could only do its own thing?

I'm sticking with my interpretation of what a (SY) can do but wouldn't be surprised one bit if told that way is wrong (Again, Heheheee).
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby procyon on Sun 01 Sep 2013 15:54

Not sure why you would want a pair of SYM as part of a complex unless they are just building systems to fit onto another hull.
And that is the one way my players have gotten around the build rules is to have one SY build JUST the hull while a bunch of other SY complete all the systems that will go on the ship. Then the SY can install all those systems in a hurry. It can save a bit of time on really big units at the expense of increased cost.

But if you allow each SY to gang up on and 'mob' a project you will be able to have your SY churn out a SD the same month you order it. Not very realistic.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby SCC on Sun 01 Sep 2013 16:07

Why put multiple shipyards of any sort into a single complex unless they can gang up to complete a single project?

Also, given the way that the building curves work it makes a LOT of sense, notice how the maximum number of HS you can cram into a single ship goes up faster then the rate at which you're ability to build stuff is?
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby Vandervecken on Sun 01 Sep 2013 18:08

SCC wrote:Also, given the way that the building curves work it makes a LOT of sense, notice how the maximum number of HS you can cram into a single ship goes up faster then the rate at which you're ability to build stuff is?


SCC, any Idea how long a Frigate takes to build compared to a DD or Cruiser in the Current US Navy, or BB if we made any anymore, or a Aircraft carrier?

Why can't we build a Carrier in a month in RL? All we need is more resources, right? ;)

Of course, Starfire is a game, but ...
Last edited by Vandervecken on Sun 01 Sep 2013 19:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby olivertheorem on Sun 01 Sep 2013 19:06

I smell an optional rule coming. :P

Mainly because, since the rules don't explicitly say you CAN combine (SY) efforts, that means you can't. Right?
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby SCC on Sun 01 Sep 2013 20:38

olivertheorem wrote:I smell an optional rule coming. :P

Mainly because, since the rules don't explicitly say you CAN combine (SY) efforts, that means you can't. Right?


Actually the wording of M1.03.1 says that the construction COMPLEX as a whole does the work, not any individual facility that makes it up, so by carefully staggering you're build orders you can get the effect I described, the way to do it would be place orders for 4 DD, then 1 DD, 4 DD and finally 1 DD and due to the way things work the complex will first work on the order for 4 DD, as that's lower then the TOTAL HS Build Rate it's completed in a month it completes them all with 20 HS to spare plus the 16 HS bonus for completing 4 ships, for a total of 36, as that's greater then the total of the next project, a single DD, that's completed as well, adding 4 HS to the remaining 6 HS, putting 10 HS to wards the next project, another 4 DD, meaning they only need 110 HS to complete next month. That leaves 30 HS + 16 HS bonus, enough to complete the next project, another single DD and when that's finished there's still 20 HS in bonus left over.

HMM, had my math wrong earlier, both this post and the OP, should be order of 4 DD, 1 DD and 5 DD, with room for another 20 HS project
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby olivertheorem on Sun 01 Sep 2013 20:44

I guess it comes down to whether they meant "construction complex" to mean only a single (SY), (SYM), (MS), etc. or if they meant all such systems in a single hull (be it a space station or a BB).
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby Vandervecken on Sun 01 Sep 2013 21:31

M1.03.1 - Capacity
After the movement phase of each month, the construction complex does up to its build rate HS of work on each of its projects.

Build rate HS is 14 HS for standard EL 2 empires. If it did 140 HS (Complex total HS) to each project that really doesn't work as ...

The definition of a 'Project' is per: M1.03 - Using Construction Complexes
A project is defined as all work on one single unit ordered and paid for at the same time.

I'm hoping that means that the way I've been playing Starfire for a while, and some of my old friends, and others on this forum is not wrong. But as I said before, I can see an interpretation of the rules that would match SCC's vision. I'm feeling pretty good that I have it right but ... where are the men in BLUE when ya need them. Like I said If the example given wasn't using all 10 (SY) with projects, the issue wouldn't be in doubt and the "Complex" issue wouldn't be so ... um, complex.
Last edited by Vandervecken on Sun 01 Sep 2013 21:48, edited 2 times in total.
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