Problem with Example M1.03.1

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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby Elminster on Wed 04 Sep 2013 07:30

SCC wrote:
Elminster wrote:
Cralis wrote:This is not a house rule... it is the way we've been playing the game for 20 years. In SSF, look at the third sentence of M1.03: All resources used in a Project must be present at the Construction Complex before the project starts...

But "No resources or units may participate in more than one project in a single month..." (last sentence).

I was more going on the idea that the hull isn't finished before the month starts and the wording sort of suggests that it has to be, it's not like a project can include systems that have yet to be built, can it?

And I think that rule might be wrong some how, otherwise a mobile shipyard can't fix more then one ship a month

SYM is a facility IN a unit, so it can repair up to its Build Rate HS on several units.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby Cralis on Thu 05 Sep 2013 00:05

Elminster wrote:But "No resources or units may participate in more than one project in a single month..." (last sentence).


Unit will be removed. That's just silly. Not sure where that came from... oh yeah, holdover from ULTRA... :roll:

SCC wrote:I was more going on the idea that the hull isn't finished before the month starts and the wording sort of suggests that it has to be, it's not like a project can include systems that have yet to be built, can it?


The wording of M1.03 is precise, it just says "before the project starts." As long as the require components are available at the time the project starts, the project can start. I'm adding the following paragraph to the end of M1.03 (making a new third paragraph), it should clear up any of these questions:

Once ordered, each Project must be assigned to a Construction Facility (or more than one Construction Facility, if the Project Type allows). A Construction Complex may not have more active Projects than the number of Construction Facilities in the Complex. If more Projects are ordered than there are Construction Facilities available, or the resources necessary for a Project are not available when the Project is ready to start, the additional Project(s) are not started until a Construction Facility and the resources needed become available.

The point is that a Project doesn't just start on day 1 of the month, it can be started at any time. For simplicity we don't track lost time as lost Build Capacity, but generally speaking, that only happens when one Project finishes and another starts in the same month.

Although, I might add that as an optional rule for you mathematical sadists out there. :)

And I think that rule might be wrong some how, otherwise a mobile shipyard can't fix more then one ship a month


Exactly.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby SCC on Thu 05 Sep 2013 00:50

That means that if I have a hull that takes two months to build if I have systems stockpiled I can order them installed at the start of the second month?
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby Cralis on Thu 05 Sep 2013 01:57

SCC wrote:That means that if I have a hull that takes two months to build if I have systems stockpiled I can order them installed at the start of the second month?


You can order anything you want, in any sequence you want. However, the Project doesn't start until:
A> you have an open Construction Facility of the appropriate type, and
B> you have the needed resources immediately available to that Construction Facility

So yes. You can order two projects from Month 1
1. Build Hull X
2. Install these systems ABC into Hull X

You can order Project #1 on Month 1 and Project #2 on Month 2 or 3. The only difference is when you pay for the Project.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby SCC on Thu 05 Sep 2013 02:48

Cralis, you misunderstood me. Using the default 14 HS SY speed on month 1 I order a 56 HS hull to be built, this will take EXACTLY 2 months, at the same time I order another SY to build the system that will be put in this hull, this will take a single month.

On month 2 I order the second SY to begin installing those systems in that as of yet unfinished hull, this will take a single month
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Thu 05 Sep 2013 04:38

I don't think you can do that as the hull is in a different building slip.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby SCC on Thu 05 Sep 2013 05:07

Actually I'm pretty sure you can, first two sentences of M1.03
A project is defined as all work on one single unit ordered and paid for at the same time. For example, repairing a damaged cruiser and having its weapons refitted with more modern ones could count as a single project, or as two projects if the repairs were started and then the refit ordered.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby procyon on Thu 05 Sep 2013 08:11

All you need is a FT with H to hold the systems or a block of H on the SS to hold the systems.
They will be right there for the project.

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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Thu 05 Sep 2013 19:40

I'm beginning top see the issue here. The best way I can describe a conventional hull build is a series of 3 linked projects. First construct the hull itself. Then build the various systems. Finally install those systems. For our hypothetical 56 HS ship the 4 month construction time essentially breaks down a build the hull on months 1 and 2, build the systems on month 3 and install the systems on month 4.

What we're missing in this equation is constructing the systems on the ground and bringing them up to the SY via FT or GTOS. If an empire can utilize ground based industry to build ship systems, that 56 HS unit can now be completed in 3 months.

SCC wrote:A project is defined as all work on one single unit ordered and paid for at the same time. For example, repairing a damaged cruiser and having its weapons refitted with more modern ones could count as a single project, or as two projects if the repairs were started and then the refit ordered.


In this example a single SY appears to be working on the project(s). What you're proposing wouldn't work as even though SY 2 has finished building the internal systems by the end of month 1, it can't do an install project on a ship under construction in SY 1 as the hull isn't complete and multiple SY's are unable to work on a single ship simultaneously. I like the wrinkle you found to cut construction times however. It does mirror reality where offsite subcontractors build components for ships/aircraft/tanks etc.
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Re: Problem with Example M1.03.1

Postby Cralis on Thu 05 Sep 2013 19:52

SCC wrote:Cralis, you misunderstood me. Using the default 14 HS SY speed on month 1 I order a 56 HS hull to be built, this will take EXACTLY 2 months, at the same time I order another SY to build the system that will be put in this hull, this will take a single month.

On month 2 I order the second SY to begin installing those systems in that as of yet unfinished hull, this will take a single month


Let me state something up front: this is clear manipulation of mechanics and would probably result in unfortunate events happening across your empire, were it my game. The reason is that you KNOW there is an assumed time component, and using the full Build Capacity of a SY on a Project and then trying to get me, the SM, to let you use up the Build Capacity of another SY in the same Month.

Well, I don't like it when people try to play those kinds of rules lawyer games.

The underlying assumption is that it takes 30 days - 1 Month - to use the 14 HS of Build Capacity of the SY in your example. Thus, finishing the Project will take you EXACTLY 2 Months of time. So no, you cannot do that.
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