Class Fee Question

Home of SOLAR STARFIRE, 6th edition, rules based on the upcoming history of the Terran Solar Union.

Moderators: SDS Members, SDS Owner

Forum rules
1. Nothing obscene.
2. No advertising or spamming.
3. No personal information. Mostly aimed at the posting of OTHER people's information.
4. No flame wars. We encourage debate, but it becomes a flame when insults fly and tempers flare.

Try to stick with the forum's topic. Threads that belong to another forum will be moved to that forum.

Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Mon 07 Oct 2013 02:01

OK, M1.03.5 has an optional rule that allows you to avoid pay the new class fee if you are placing the old systems with a higher generation system in the same tree that is the same size (I think in the past the you could get away with smaller systems) but there's an interesting case/variant on this that I require clarification on

If I have a DD design that mounts three Ra in a row, (At 4 HS that's 12 HS total) and replace on a ship that's already been built with 4 Rb (3 HS each, so the totals the same) I have to pay a class fee (assuming this ship is the first of the new class), now when I develop Re (4 HS again) if I pull those Rb and replace them with Re do I need to pay a class fee?
SCC
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Fri 08 Mar 2013 15:11

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Vandervecken on Mon 07 Oct 2013 05:11

RCC,

As I read it, YES.

You paid your Shipwrights to move the wiring, bulkheads, plumbing, ammo feeds, braces, whatever to repace something that is a different size. And unfortunately, now you'll have to do it again. If you had any of the Ra ships from the fringes of your empire left or stored in mothballs, they could go from Ra to Re without a Class Fee. But the second you refit a ship with Rb to Re, the class fee is needed.

Like I say, that is how I read the rules.
I weary of the chasssse. Wait for me. I will be mercccciful and quick.
User avatar
Vandervecken
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2012 20:21
Location: Minnesnowta

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Mon 07 Oct 2013 13:33

Thing is I'm pretty sure that the refit fee covers moving that stuff around, and if I refit one of those Ra ships first I never have to pay a class fee
SCC
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Fri 08 Mar 2013 15:11

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Vandervecken on Mon 07 Oct 2013 21:00

Which will work fine until you try to fit a square peg into a round hole; but you have no plan to do that unless you pay a new class fee to pay for the 3 space (Square) to 4 space (Circle) use ships. Your round peg to round hole ships are fine, eh? I interpret the changes as part of class fee, you don't have to. Both of us are using the rules until someone in blue gives us a definitive ruling, kind of like Schrödinger's cat, eh?
I weary of the chasssse. Wait for me. I will be mercccciful and quick.
User avatar
Vandervecken
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2012 20:21
Location: Minnesnowta

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Mon 07 Oct 2013 21:51

The thing is this ships originally had Squares, then it was changed to work with Circles and is now being changed to work with Squares again

More importantly if I had converted one of the older Ra ships first there would be no class fee to pay at all.
SCC
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Fri 08 Mar 2013 15:11

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Vandervecken on Tue 08 Oct 2013 00:12

As a GM, I might say, no new class fee needed if you spent the SY time and money to revert the Rb ship to a Ra , then convert the Ra ship into a Re ship. Because there are no documents for your shipyard workers to follow to convert from Rb to Re, with thier different size weapons directly. That is what I envision part of the Class fee will pay for, but again that is me. And since SOLAR doesn't say you CAN do what you intend to do ... I fear that the "Golden Rule" probably applies, eh? Again RCC, if your NPCs also play by the same rules in your game, go for it! I'm just one opinion, no one else has commented on your question. I wouldn't let this slow down your campaign. If you are right, you're right; and if you are wrong, it's a 'House Rule'. Drive on, my good man.

Since no one in BLUE has said either you or I are wrong yet (or both?) ... I'll just put some food in the box for Schrödinger's cat in case it still is alive.
I weary of the chasssse. Wait for me. I will be mercccciful and quick.
User avatar
Vandervecken
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2012 20:21
Location: Minnesnowta

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Cralis on Tue 08 Oct 2013 00:48

The actual rule is M3.06.3 and it is NOT an optional rule. I'm removing that "optional" rule from M1.03.5 because it is unnecessary to say it twice.

The rule is VERY clear: ...any change of system (even of the same size) from other tech branches, or of different sizes, counts as a new class...

It even uses Ra to Re (not a new class) and Ra to Rb (a new class) as an example.

Van, I don't understand what you are saying about "revert Rb to Ra" first... Ra is 3 HS, Rb is 4 HS, so that will incur a new class fee, refit cost, and new components. Then Ra to Re will take a refit fee plus the new components. You should refit from Rb to Re directly, otherwise you will spend more time and money for a extra refit to Ra. There is no benefit and only loss from doing this.

Further, M1.03.5 is supposed to be dealing with new construction. If I'm remembering correctly, refits were intended to always result in a new fee even if you change the design back to a new one. Why? Because building a ship from scratch is not the same thing as rebuilding (refitting) a ship from one design to another. You have to deal with moving and converting conduits, passageways, etc. etc. and that costs a ton more than building them in the first place.

So unless someone can make a convincing argument otherwise, M1.03.5 will apply to new construction and M3.06.3 will apply to refits. Thoughts?
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 10195
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Tue 08 Oct 2013 01:18

Van, the reason I'm asking is that it seems to be an ambiguous situation

Cralis, when I asked the question I was working of off this bit tacked onto the end of M1.03.5 "(Optional) The class unit fee may be avoided in a refit if systems are replaced by other systems from the same tech branch and of the same size in HS, without re-arranging the order of the systems on the control sheet."

And Van's bit about reverting was because my question was if I go from Ra to Rb then to Re do I need to pay a new class fee on the second refit
SCC
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Fri 08 Mar 2013 15:11

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Vandervecken on Tue 08 Oct 2013 01:49

Cralis wrote:Van, I don't understand what you are saying about "revert Rb to Ra" first... Ra is 3 HS, Rb is 4 HS, so that will incur a new class fee, refit cost, and new components. Then Ra to Re will take a refit fee plus the new components. You should refit from Rb to Re directly, otherwise you will spend more time and money for a extra refit to Ra. There is no benefit and only loss from doing this.


I know it is usually more expensive (if they had the Ra stored from the first refit then not so much) and time consuming, but if someone really wanted to avoid a Class Fee (See below) ...

As to the underlined portion, if only the weapons were reverted, I'd possibly let the player slide with being able to retrofit the ship back to the Ra design without another class fee, if they had paid for a class fee change from Ra to Rb earlier, but then I'm a generous son-of-a-bi___ ... and I realize that that isn't a SOLAR rule. As it is wasting a bit of the empire's SY time and MCr to double upgrade, I'd not recommend it though; even if I was nice and House ruled that retrogrades didn't need another class fee.

P.S. - In my limited experience, about when you are switching Rb to Re, there are some other things that often you want to add/change to the design at that same time as well (Yb, M2, Za or Zb, sometimes Qb or Qe (to gain a space), Tb, Da or Db, A1, S1 ...; so you are often going to need a Class Fee with the New ship design. One of my '3 Empires' races was looking into that as it has 6 Ra ships that are mothballed, but with the other tech items the empire has found in 25+ turns when they do get Re soon, it is a moot point because of the other stuff I want to add. Usually, it is the smallest 'Force Beam' ships that often can avoid the class fee as there isn't much room for anything else but the same size newer version of the 1 or 2 Force Beams crammed into the small vessel.
I weary of the chasssse. Wait for me. I will be mercccciful and quick.
User avatar
Vandervecken
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2012 20:21
Location: Minnesnowta

Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Tue 08 Oct 2013 02:12

Van, I'm pretty sure you only ever pay the Class Fee for a given class ONCE, so if a ship starts out as Class A, then gets refitted to Class B then gets refitted back to Class A you CAN'T pay a Class Fee the second time.

More to the point because of this it is cheaper (Class Fee wise) to refit an older ship then to build a new one, the old one only pays the fee on systems and hull spaces that change, not a the whole ship, it also pays a lower price per HS in Class Fee

All this probably begets a second question, just to make sure: A Class Fee is only payable on the first unit in a class and any other units in that class whose construction is started at the same time, any units whose construction is began one or more months later NEVER pay a Class Fee, even if they would under M3.06.3 if the original/first unit in the class is new build or under M1.03.5 if the first unit is a refit

Additionally, Claris, M3.06.3 is NEW in SOLAR 6.03, so that bit on the end of M1.03.5 I quoted probably needs to be removed
SCC
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Fri 08 Mar 2013 15:11

Next

Return to Solar Starfire

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests