Class Fee Question

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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Fri 11 Oct 2013 02:45

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:That's probably better then not reading enough into something, and I think I got confused over how detached M1.03.5 and M3.06.3 are from one another


That was the whole point of this exercise. They aren't the same thing, yet they share a common term, and are currently written in such a way that it seems like that suggests so much more. If that makes sense.

SCC wrote:I think I got confused by your post on the second, page this bit: "Refits were intended to always result in a new fee EXCEPT when there are minimal changes." I thought from what you said that that meant a Class Fee was paid on every applicable refit


Now you've changed what you said. The class fee is paid on every applicable refit. What is applicable is defined in M3.06.3. Previously you did not use the word applicable. You used "all"

It's what I meant to say, but it came out wrong, why I did that faceplam

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:And so re refit Class Fee trumps a Mass Production one, but not the other way around, nor does a refit class fee trump another refit class fee (I don't think I need to go into specifics)


None of these are related. There is no "trump" involved. Refits and new Construction are completely separate project types.

As to my original question, I would pay a Class Fee, even if I had converted ships still mounting Ra first or done new construction, but if I do the convert first the mass production doesn't pay and a Rb to Re refit would remove the Class Fee on mass production


what?

Ok, let's break this down into a branching statement:

1. If you are building the first unit of a class, you pay the class fee on the construction cost.

2. If you are building additional units after the first of a class, but started during the same month as the first of the class, you pay the class fee on the construction cost.

3. If you are building additional units after the first of a class, but started on a month AFTER the month the first of a class was started, you do NOT pay the class fee on the construction cost.

4. If you refit a ship and replace one or more systems with another system developed in the same tech branch, and is the same size in HS, you do NOT pay the class fee on the refit cost.

5. If you refit a ship and replace one or more systems with another system developed in the same tech branch, but is a different size in HS, you pay the class fee on the refit cost.

6. If you refit a ship and replace one or more systems with another system that is NOT from the same tech branch, no matter what the HS size is, you pay the class fee on the refit cost.

I believe these are all the possible conditions.


Yeah, I'd say that's all possible conditions and I'm pretty sure that isn't what Van is saying (Could be wrong but, I think he mucked up in his last post)

Now that I think about it I think part of the problem I've been having is the use of the term Class Fee, refits don't really actually work with classes

Elminster wrote:
Cralis wrote:5. If you refit a ship and replace one or more systems with another system developed in the same tech branch, but is a different size in HS, you pay the class fee on the refit cost.

6. If you refit a ship and replace one or more systems with another system that is NOT from the same tech branch, no matter what the HS size is, you pay the class fee on the refit cost.


7. If you are building additional units after the refit which resulted in a first of a class, but started on a month AFTER the month of this refit, you do NOT pay the class fee on the construction cost.

Correct?


No, from what I understand, in fact I think that was one of the cases that Cralis shot down that I posted before

I'm starting to doubt that I'm the only one confused by what Cralis said
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Vandervecken on Fri 11 Oct 2013 05:00

It is much clearer now. I was going to post something similar to what SCC suggested in his last post, but I had to depart to do some work at my job. It happens, I got to earn my 7 figure salary some days (7 figures if you include a pair [closer to 3 than 2] of placeholder 0's). But I'm back so ...

I belive that Solar Starfire should have the term 'Class Fee' apply to new designs and perhaps 'Refit Fee' could be the term to apply to refit designs. Both still will be 20%, where a 'Class Fee' applies to the total cost of ship and 'Refit Fee' applies to the cost of the refit. Getting rid of a like term with 2 different applications will make new & older players know right away that they are dealing with Apples and Oranges rule-wise.

If Cralis says Elminster's #7 is correct now that Cralis has broken down the matter to the particular variables, I will again be a bit confused. Perhaps Cralis can give one last example of how M3.06.3.2 works into the cases he listed above.

Hehehee. In the end SCC, we were both wrong on parts of this issue, and we were both right on parts; but we just weren't wrong or right together.

SCC wrote: Yeah, I'd say that's all possible conditions and I'm pretty sure that isn't what Van is saying (Could be wrong but, I think he mucked up in his last post)


I wouldn't say 'mucked up', I was just looking for the "Grand unifying theory of Class fees" and didn't catch Cralis's hints because I had the right idea about a few qualifier fee rules before that. I thought I was on a roll. I was consistant right up to the point where I drove my VW Microbus right over the cliff. But I got some '2nd Glorious Kobold Empire' flight wings out of it.
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Cralis on Sat 12 Oct 2013 02:30

Elminster wrote:
Cralis wrote:5. If you refit a ship and replace one or more systems with another system developed in the same tech branch, but is a different size in HS, you pay the class fee on the refit cost.

6. If you refit a ship and replace one or more systems with another system that is NOT from the same tech branch, no matter what the HS size is, you pay the class fee on the refit cost.


7. If you are building additional units after the refit which resulted in a first of a class, but started on a month AFTER the month of this refit, you do NOT pay the class fee on the construction cost.

Correct?


Ah yes, it has traditionally been accepted that a refit creates a new "class" and there is some historical support for this claim. But there has also been numerous examples of a refit that was little more than ripping out some systems and bolting some new ones in, jury rigging everything to run power and such and maintain physical support and integrity.

But yes, STARFIRE has (and does) traditionally recognize Eliminster's point #7.

Vandervecken wrote:I believe that Solar Starfire should have the term 'Class Fee' apply to new designs and perhaps 'Refit Fee' could be the term to apply to refit designs. Both still will be 20%, where a 'Class Fee' applies to the total cost of ship and 'Refit Fee' applies to the cost of the refit. Getting rid of a like term with 2 different applications will make new & older players know right away that they are dealing with Apples and Oranges rule-wise.


It really isn't two different "terms", it is two different paths or applications. We are spending far too much time trying to break down and analyze something that is VERY simple.

New construction is done from a Class: a single design of large unit. Generally given some sort of name as an identifier for that class.

For example, the Columbia-class DD has the design: [3] SSSAZaHQb(Ib)(Ib)(Ib)(Ib)De(Ib)DeQb?aFbDe(Ib)Fb [6/3]
Obviously, in this case, the first Columbia-class DD will incur a Class Fee. As long as the second and subsequent ships are built in the months AFTER the first ship was built, they will not incur the Class fee.

However, Refits are changes to an existing Class, forming a new class of slightly different design. At least, under the concepts that STARFIRE uses.

For example, I want to make the Columbia Mod-1-class DD: [3] SSSAZaHQb(Ie)(Ie)(Ie)(Ie)De(Ie)DeQb?aFbDe(Ie)Fb [6/3]

The refit from Ib to Ie is a minor refit because the refitted engines are from the same tech branch, and they are the same HS in size. This does NOT require the Class Fee upon doing the refit project.

However, some months later I want to build the Columba Mod-R-class DD: [3] SSSAZaHQb(Ie)(Ie)(Ie)(Ie)De(Ie)DeQb?aMgReDe(Ie)Fb [6/3]

NOW in this case the changes are: one of the Fb to Re + Mg. In THIS case the refit is a MAJOR refit because Fb was changed to an Re + Mg, which is not only not in the same tech tree but also different HS sizes. This DOES require the Class Fee.

The question we should be asking is whether or not, in the case that the player then wants to build new construction of the Columbia Mod-R class, on whether or not he has to pay a Class Fee. The presumption is that when doing a refit that the "builders" will make a blueprint of the changes. Thoughts?
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Sat 12 Oct 2013 04:42

I think I've found what was confusing me, or a least some of it
Cralis wrote:First, M1.03.5 only states that the Class Fee is paid when the ship is first constructed. It does not say that it will never be charged again. As I said earlier, M1.03.5 is supposed to pertain only to construction. Thus the reason the title is Class Units and Mass Production.


OK, I think I've got a way sum up the whole thing: A Class Fee is payable ONLY on the first turn when work, either new construction or refits, begins that will result in units of the new class. The amount is the sum of 20% of the list cost of all new construction and/or 20% of the cost of all the refits if a Class Fee is payable. Any work began after this first turn never incurs a Class Fee.

I think is accurately covers what has been said, maybe not all but still
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby LesMasters on Sat 12 Oct 2013 10:39

Cralis

In answer to your last question - I have always assumed that the "builders" will indeed make "blueprints" of a refit, so that new construction can be built without the first [i]new[/i] unit incurring a class refit fee.

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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby procyon on Sat 12 Oct 2013 11:08

On the thought of a refit of another ship class to an existing design - that hasn't had that refit...

So using your example. I have refit a Columbia DD to a DD-R. But now I want to convert my Lexington DDE to a Columbia DD-R.
Realistically - that would be a big undertaking and should probably cost extra.
In game - OMG NO!
It can be hard enough to track what designs have been made before but are no longer in service 'in case' the players decide to build one again. If you have to keep track of just which design has been converted to which design...even software would have a hard enough time tracking all that. For me with P&P it would be impossible.
For me - if a new design gets put on the 'fleet list' - you pay a class fee. Tracking whether you can convert Columbia to Columbia -R or to Lexington or back again if you don't need that Lexington now, etc, etc, etc - goodness forbid you amalgamate and now have to add in a mass of new designs...
My answer would be - track the new designs. Only.
Not 'what has been converted to what or back'. That could be a nightmare.
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Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 12 Oct 2013 17:18

If the new Columbia Mod R's are started on the same month as the refits, then yes the fee is applicable. If you start building new ships at a later date, then I would say no.
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Sat 12 Oct 2013 18:12

I've just realized something, something important

Mg and in the same tech tree as H and I'm sure that older, wiser members with more knoweldge of the rules can point out similar cases

That's wrong, I've just realized that Mg isn't in the CON tree (Probably should be but), however both H and Hb are, as are (SYM) and (MS)

And can we get strike though markup added to the board?
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Cralis on Sat 12 Oct 2013 23:35

SCC wrote:Mg and in the same tech tree as H and I'm sure that older, wiser members with more knoweldge of the rules can point out similar cases

That's wrong, I've just realized that Mg isn't in the CON tree (Probably should be but), however both H and Hb are, as are (SYM) and (MS)


Where do you see the sentence you have marked in red? I don't remember anyone saying that...

And you are correct. I've already got notes for the next version to make the "Magazine Twig" so it has a real home in the tech trees. It will be available through tech branches for all launchers and squadrons, as per AppAA7.06

SCC wrote:And can we get strike though markup added to the board?


It's way down on my list. We have been marking things red for deletions, and green for revisions. Except for my personal comments on the bug topics, where I post in green. We've also been marking rules quotes (especially FINAL rules quotes) in blue.

procyon wrote:On the thought of a refit of another ship class to an existing design - that hasn't had that refit...

So using your example. I have refit a Columbia DD to a DD-R. But now I want to convert my Lexington DDE to a Columbia DD-R.


Not my question NOR the intent of the rule. If you recall, I've been saying that ALL major refits pay the Class Fee. That doesn't say "only the first major refit pays the class fee" -- NO NO NO.

The QUESTION was whether new construction based on the refit class should pay the Class Fee. I'm inclined to say YES, as per normal rules for new construction.

Using your example, it wouldn't make sense to allow the Lexington DDE to be refitted to the Columbia DD-R without a fee. Even just based on the rules, it will have different systems and system sizes to swap in and out as compared to a simple Columbia DD being converted. Thus the reason I was saying ALL major refits will require the Class Fee because every major refit is effectively a brand new project with different starting conditions (systems, configurations, etc.)

If you wanted to be a sadist, you could track when you convert one design to another and then allow that to be done exactly. But for simplicity, SSF will say ALL major refits require the Class Fee.

That's the direction it's headed right now, for realism and for the very reasons you specify.
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Sun 13 Oct 2013 00:24

Cralis the stuff in red was supposed to be struck through and there used to be a Mg Tech Tree, but is was removed for some reason

And I think there's something that still needs to be covered, you've always said that every MAJOR refit should attract a Class Fee, is that on a class-to-class basis (IE: the first refit from Class A to Class B pays but none of the others) or simply every major refit (All refit's from Class A to Class B pay).

And if the former would a refit from a related class remove the fee? IE: Classes A and C can be refitted with paying a fee, if I convert a ship of Cass A and pay the fee can I convert Class C ships to Class B without fee?
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