Class Fee Question

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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Cralis on Sun 13 Oct 2013 04:26

SCC wrote:Cralis the stuff in red was supposed to be struck through and there used to be a Mg Tech Tree, but is was removed for some reason


I got that. But I'm asking where it was in the first place that it needed to be removed?

And I think there's something that still needs to be covered, you've always said that every MAJOR refit should attract a Class Fee, is that on a class-to-class basis (IE: the first refit from Class A to Class B pays but none of the others) or simply every major refit (All refit's from Class A to Class B pay).

And if the former would a refit from a related class remove the fee? IE: Classes A and C can be refitted with paying a fee, if I convert a ship of Cass A and pay the fee can I convert Class C ships to Class B without fee?


If I'm understanding correctly, then no. What I'm suggesting we have is that EVERY major refit pays the fee, even if you've done it before. Refits are not something that you can mass produce. They are custom projects every single time.

As an example: if you've ever tried to change something (like, for example, install custom stuff on your car), you'll know what I mean. Even if you've done it before, quite often each car requires slight changes due to how it was built or what else has previously been installed.
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Sun 13 Oct 2013 05:06

Sorry, that wasn't from the books, it was just something that I wrote earlier and then realized was wrong

I think there's a logical disconnect in the rules, once you KNOW what they're saying it's clear that they're put together the right way, but unless you know that before hand you could get them wrong
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Cralis on Sun 13 Oct 2013 23:30

SCC wrote:Sorry, that wasn't from the books, it was just something that I wrote earlier and then realized was wrong


Ooooooh ok. I thought you were saying that someone quoted that. No worries.

I think there's a logical disconnect in the rules, once you KNOW what they're saying it's clear that they're put together the right way, but unless you know that before hand you could get them wrong


Yeah... that's why I'm working on re-writing them :)
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Mon 14 Oct 2013 00:36

I think that putting all the Class Fee rules together in a single lump would help
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby procyon on Mon 14 Oct 2013 16:20

Not sure I support the 'every refit' pays the class fee. The first time through - yes. But everytime because they are all a 'bit different'?

So should it also be attached to ships that are being repaired from damage incurred? That crud would ALWAYS require a 'sit down and just what the heck do we need to do' session that would make the 10th time you've pulled the engine and dropped in a new block look easy.

And those adjustments on the 10th engine swap for a recalled car isn't much different than when you first build the car and need to get things together off the assembly line.
But that is my opinion. If the goal is 'every refit - period' gets a class fee attached, then I suppose that's fine. I don't see much potential for abuse of the rule.
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby procyon on Mon 14 Oct 2013 16:26

I just thought the 'class fee' was intended to curtail players like my wife who would make every single ship a unique design that you end up having to track, creating a paperwork nightmare.

If every refit has a fee, not just new classes, I am quite sure she will begin refitting them all as different designs as there is no penalty for it. In game I don't see a major advantage, just a pain for me to try and track.
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Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Mon 14 Oct 2013 21:55

I can see why many refits have a class fee. Look at all of the KON CA classes from SAW. Many of the older ships eventually wound up being the Fibor/Fibur class. Each of the starting designs would have needed a different refit to become the upgraded ship. Thus each of those refits would have needed a class fee.
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Cralis on Mon 14 Oct 2013 22:12

procyon wrote:Not sure I support the 'every refit' pays the class fee. The first time through - yes. But every time because they are all a 'bit different'?


No, because every single time you are doing customized modifications to an already-built ship. Going back to our car example, if you put in an engine that is a little bit larger, you may have to cut new holes in the firewall, run larger lines, and built extra supports. It isn't that you don't know how, it's just more work than putting in the same sized engine.

So should it also be attached to ships that are being repaired from damage incurred? That crud would ALWAYS require a 'sit down and just what the heck do we need to do' session that would make the 10th time you've pulled the engine and dropped in a new block look easy.


No, the cost of repairs presumes that you are rebuilding and replacing according to existing specifications. You don't have to adjust anything, just build it new again. NOW there are complex repair + refit projects, and the refit portion might count.

And those adjustments on the 10th engine swap for a recalled car isn't much different than when you first build the car and need to get things together off the assembly line.


As long as it's the same engine (same tech tree, same # of HS), we are agreed. But if it isn't, then this is no longer true.

But that is my opinion. If the goal is 'every refit - period' gets a class fee attached, then I suppose that's fine. I don't see much potential for abuse of the rule.


That's why we don't delve into retrofits, large volume refits where you rip out huge sections and replace them (which is easier than spot refits).

I just thought the 'class fee' was intended to curtail players like my wife who would make every single ship a unique design that you end up having to track, creating a paperwork nightmare.


That was one of the reasons that Marvin gave for it. IF you want to talk about economic incentives: an overall penalty against refits will push new construction, while the Class Unit Fee on classes will push long construction lines of fewer classes.

If a player wants to do a bunch of classes they can still do it. It costs more, there is a very marginal advantage (if any at all), and as you say, it requires a lot more paperwork. The alternative, which is to allow refits from one design to another with only the first having a Class Unit Fee, would only incur the fee the first time and all additional refits from the same class to the new class wouldn't cost more -- THAT would be an even worse paperwork nightmare.

"Ok, I"ve done Columbia-class DD, Lexington-class DD, and Napoleon-class DD to Columbia DDR Refit-class. Now I want to do the Perry-class DD to the Columbia DDR Refit-class, so I need to mark that Class Unit as done."

Columbia DDR-refit class
[x] ABCDEF [x/x]
Conversions Complete: Columbia, Napoleon, Lexington, Perry
<--- really? you want to do this?

You really want to do that? As you've mentioned before, it makes no sense to allow refits from different classes to the same class without paying attention to whether it's been done, the differences in cost, etc. etc. This is the only viable alternative.

If every refit has a fee, not just new classes, I am quite sure she will begin refitting them all as different designs as there is no penalty for it. In game I don't see a major advantage, just a pain for me to try and track.


Are you saying that because EVERY refit is 20% more, she'll continue to uniquely refit every ship? Wow. That's a HUGE loss of money for such a marginal gain. I feel your pain... I've had players do it before ...but they all stop when they realize what a money sink all those custom builds (or refits, in this case) are costing them.

Really it's a choice: do you want to do the paperwork for tracking every conversion and then apply Class Unit Fees to refits as if they were construction? Or do you want to do the paperwork to track each refit independently? It really seems like a wash to me, assuming that's the only consideration here.
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby SCC on Tue 15 Oct 2013 01:04

Cralis wrote:
procyon wrote:Not sure I support the 'every refit' pays the class fee. The first time through - yes. But every time because they are all a 'bit different'?


No, because every single time you are doing customized modifications to an already-built ship. Going back to our car example, if you put in an engine that is a little bit larger, you may have to cut new holes in the firewall, run larger lines, and built extra supports. It isn't that you don't know how, it's just more work than putting in the same sized engine.

Shouldn't that have been covered by the refitting fee?

Cralis wrote:
procyon wrote:If every refit has a fee, not just new classes, I am quite sure she will begin refitting them all as different designs as there is no penalty for it. In game I don't see a major advantage, just a pain for me to try and track.


Are you saying that because EVERY refit is 20% more, she'll continue to uniquely refit every ship? Wow. That's a HUGE loss of money for such a marginal gain. I feel your pain... I've had players do it before ...but they all stop when they realize what a money sink all those custom builds (or refits, in this case) are costing them.

Really it's a choice: do you want to do the paperwork for tracking every conversion and then apply Class Unit Fees to refits as if they were construction? Or do you want to do the paperwork to track each refit independently? It really seems like a wash to me, assuming that's the only consideration here.

That's not quite what he's saying, he's saying that if EVERY refit pays a Class Fee there's no need to stick to the same class when you're refitting a bunch of ships of the same class

And you said that Elminster's case 7 was valid, right? She could then use the fact that she paid Class Fee's on those refits to avoid paying the more expensive mass production Class Fee's on those designs
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Re: Class Fee Question

Postby Cralis on Tue 15 Oct 2013 01:14

SCC wrote:
Cralis wrote:
procyon wrote:Not sure I support the 'every refit' pays the class fee. The first time through - yes. But every time because they are all a 'bit different'?


No, because every single time you are doing customized modifications to an already-built ship. Going back to our car example, if you put in an engine that is a little bit larger, you may have to cut new holes in the firewall, run larger lines, and built extra supports. It isn't that you don't know how, it's just more work than putting in the same sized engine.


Shouldn't that have been covered by the refitting fee?


It's the same fee whether you are doing a minor or a major refit. Does that sound right to you?

That's not quite what he's saying, he's saying that if EVERY refit pays a Class Fee there's no need to stick to the same class when you're refitting a bunch of ships of the same class


And I'm saying that the only alternative creates a LOT more tracking and paperwork.

And you said that Elminster's case 7 was valid, right? She could then use the fact that she paid Class Fee's on those refits to avoid paying the more expensive mass production Class Fee's on those designs


I've said that his example was the traditional way that STARFIRE has done it, but that this is a point under debate.

In short; if you allow refit designs to be treated as mass produced designs, then you need to track what designs have been converted to the refit design or else you are allowing ANY design to be converted. That is completely unrealistic. But if you track all those conversions, then you create a huge overhead of paperwork.

You should go back and re-read my last two posts VERY carefully. The implications are pretty sever no matter which you choose. We'll likely include several optional rules for GMs and players to choose as variations.
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