New weapon idea?

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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby procyon on Tue 25 Jul 2017 04:44

Oh my. Not sure I will have enough time to answer all this. So, point by point.

Why base this on L range? Why not G? Or Pg? I'm just curious why you chose L as the base.


Kind of made a middle ground range. It is actually about the same as G, but not quite. And we do consider it semi-guided.

Why does nebula increase the range?


Nebula has effect on all non-L/G SRW ranges. And since nebula effect both DF and S (which the pulse gun uses), a range mod seemed necessary.

Why munitions?


Part for flavor, part for how we saw it. We saw it as a variant on K technology. But instead of needing a huge weapon with a tiny munition - it traded weapon size for the need of a large munition that contained most of the weapon's power. And the munition is 1 msp for us.

How effective do you see this against squadrons?


We have it in our game where ship based weapons use their normal to hit and damage against smcft. So it is a bit less effective than most other SRW, but better than R up close due to better to hit numbers.

I think I really like the idea


We do to. It has been officially house ruled into existence. It hasn't proved at all unbalancing so far. But with Pb at 2.33 HS, it allows an armed EX that can turret mount a weapon with a slightly better hit profile than G but doing slightly less damage. Or an ES that has multiple weapons without being simply a pair of weapons and not much else.

Oh, one other thing.
We treat Pulse Guns (P) the same as Lj/DEC - and are available to all empires at the start if you want to develop it.
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Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby procyon on Tue 25 Jul 2017 05:20

re Emitter

Cralis wrote:Ok, regardless of the explanation this is the meat of the... weapon? I'm hesitant to call it a weapon, even though it appears you intend for this to be fired, make a to-hit roll, and then apply the effect upon a successful hit. I like the basic idea of using the laser damage chart to determine the modifier.


We see it as a weapon, although the first 'non-damage' weapon other than T.

And we like the L chart, as it does let you get greater disruption if you are willing to get close to a target.

My biggest concern is that if this is used in any large numbers it's going to dramatically reduce the speed of gameplay. If you've got dozens of these weapons firing at dozens of targets, you're going to be recording lots of sensor reductions and recalculating the detection results every single turn. This is a pretty powerful system. It literally disrupts everything about combat.


For us it hasn't been a huge burden. But our game tends toward smaller fleets. In a game with 100's of ships to a side - it could be a pain.
But for us it is no worse than tracking munition points in Mg. The end of the ship string has the effective sensor on it - which we have gotten used to penciling a mod next to for LOD, transit effects, etc. So tacking on a mod for this doesn't add much.

Cralis wrote: I can't see Td affecting it


In the example of F, we see the Td as ineffective due to F being a brute force and momentary effect. Td has no time to do anything and lacks the power to deal with it regardless.
We see the Subspace Emitter (which we resurrected the O system, for Overload emitter...) as actually being a branch off of either ECM or T (showing up at around SL 8).
The weapon has to make a to hit, and that represents getting the necessary lock onto the ship (like a tractor, although it is just essentially creating a harmonic with that ship's DF). When it locks on, then it causes the disruption to occur like ECM - but in the target's DF making it difficult for the 'victim' to resolve or target past it's own DF. Dropping the DF is no defense as now the emissions simply wash over your ship causing the same effect (so it can be used on LEL drives). Gt drive ships are unaffected - but not an issue for us...

Td can break the 'lock' the emitter has with a target and as you say - the momentary disruptions as the ship moves in and out of the beam have no effect or are cancelled out.

As for size, we have had no issue (so far) with it being one HS larger than L of equal gen and larger ships mounting multiple installations.

As I said, the missile queen hates little pickets managing to blind a datalink or so. But if you don't blind all the ships in a link - they just shift targeting to another member of the link so it isn't terribly powerful in that role. And if a ship mounts enough O to blind a link - is has few other weapons and tends to get shredded rather quickly at point blank by the link it is targeting.

The unexpected effect, what it is most often used for - and what I think you may be most interested in - is that it can effectively blind small craft for us. But we have created a sensor chart that has rows below the Ind1 to represent increased sensor disruption. And FQ/GB generally have no ability to stop this effect. So for us small craft may find themselves having to close to just a tH or two to even attack.

And again, nebula already are messing with most weapons based on these forces - and messing up a ships sensors. We just see using the emitter on a ship in a nebula as being about the same as using a smoke grenade to obscure enemy vision on a dark and foggy day. The smoke may get in the way - but they might not even notice it was there...
...and I will show you fear in a handful of dust....

Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby Cralis on Thu 27 Jul 2017 02:05

procyon wrote:And we like the L chart, as it does let you get greater disruption if you are willing to get close to a target.


Agreed on the concept, I'll probably want to tweak the values a little. I'm kind of torn on the range though. Having it with a longer range means that it can be used much more tactically, whereas a short range means that your ship will make itself really vulnerable to enemy fire.

But for us it is no worse than tracking munition points in Mg. The end of the ship string has the effective sensor on it - which we have gotten used to penciling a mod next to for LOD, transit effects, etc. So tacking on a mod for this doesn't add much.


But if it's large enough then it won't be as commonly used. Because I'm looking at the possibility of much larger fleet battles, I think I'll want it to be a much larger system so it's not so commonly used.

The blinding effects, datalink disruption, sensors reductions... it seems like an omni-purpose electronic warfare system. But, I really like the basic concept and I think it would make a great basis for making interesting "electronic combat" style effects... perhaps if there were a few different systems with some interplay and maybe some counter systems. I've written a bunch of notes and I really need to think about it. Electronic warfare is something that basically doesn't exist in Starfire and many players in the past have asked us if we are going to do it or just house ruled their own system into the game.

And again, nebula already are messing with most weapons based on these forces - and messing up a ships sensors. We just see using the emitter on a ship in a nebula as being about the same as using a smoke grenade to obscure enemy vision on a dark and foggy day. The smoke may get in the way - but they might not even notice it was there...


Interesting analogy. I need to think about this more.
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby procyon on Thu 27 Jul 2017 02:24

Cralis wrote:datalink disruption


Ummm...
Don't remember saying anything about that. Perhaps getting confused with the Z thread ??
Unless you have plans to add to its effects...
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Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby procyon on Thu 27 Jul 2017 05:09

Cralis wrote: I'm kind of torn on the range though. Having it with a longer range means that it can be used much more tactically, whereas a short range means that your ship will make itself really vulnerable to enemy fire.


Missed replying to this.

We have tried it with a longer range. We didn't like it.
It pretty much forces all combats to become close range affairs as all the LRW combatants just start blinding each other at long range. Or employed support vessels that accomplished the same thing. We weren't impressed.
...and I will show you fear in a handful of dust....

Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby Cralis on Thu 27 Jul 2017 13:10

procyon wrote:
Cralis wrote:datalink disruption


Don't remember saying anything about that. Perhaps getting confused with the Z thread ??


In your description about the missile queen, you said that it would "blind a datalink" ... I took that to mean it would block the datalink, since you said "other ships in the link"
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby procyon on Fri 28 Jul 2017 01:25

Cralis wrote:you said that it would "blind a datalink"


Oh, I can see the misunderstanding.

By that I mean that someone would run a ship up and degrade all the ships in one of her datalinks so that she couldn't fire on the target she really wanted to. It would be forced to engage the one small and less dangerous target close by while more distant targets would either fire unopposed or close on her ships.

We let ship weapons fire to full range against small craft. But if they are accompanied by a few small and fast ships with the ability to degrade sensors - then the long range missile groups are forced to deal with the 'emitter escorts' while the small craft close on the warships.
...and I will show you fear in a handful of dust....

Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby Cralis on Fri 28 Jul 2017 08:29

Got it. That actually makes more sense. Now I'm wondering if they use all volunteer crews on the jamming ship... it would be a suicide mission!
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby procyon on Fri 28 Jul 2017 16:57

Drakar started the tradition that his Assault Corvettes (CT with Lc) were crewed by prisoners who were paroled for their service. Of course it was generally trading one death sentence for another.
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Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: New weapon idea?

Postby Cralis on Sun 30 Jul 2017 02:26

procyon wrote:Drakar started the tradition that his Assault Corvettes (CT with Lc) were crewed by prisoners who were paroled for their service. Of course it was generally trading one death sentence for another.


Heh, I have no problems accepting some of these types of things as long as they are adequately explained and make sense...

But I'm thinking more generally. Not everyone is going to do something like this (realistically speaking).
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