Is Maintenance Too High?

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Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby SCC on Thu 10 Aug 2017 05:14

OK, I've been pushing some decompression thoughts around and I've realized something: Maintenance, as a percentage of ship cost, is way too high. It's okay when you apply fuzzy economics to make the game run faster and be more enjoyable, but once you scale back population based income things get really bad, to the point that and ship costs 50% to operate then it did to build.
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby nukesnipe on Thu 10 Aug 2017 07:22

You're probably right, but I like games with smaller numbers of ships, so the maintenance costs work toward that goal.
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby Cralis on Fri 11 Aug 2017 01:11

SCC wrote:to the point that and ship costs 50% to operate then it did to build.


I'm trying to figure out how you got a 50% operational cost out of 15% maintenance.
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby SCC on Fri 11 Aug 2017 01:25

Research costs are also too high, a full turns worth worth of EL research costs 100 MCr + 20% of TGI, multiply that by 10 and well, yeah.

Of course there's problems with that to: TGI is calculated after modifiers for REI, Governor and anything else, like EVB, which probably shouldn't be included (At least for research purposes) and I'm assuming IU are still producing income per turn/month instead of annually, and this kinda leads to problems, what should have a monthly cost and what should have an annual cost?

Cralis, that's a typo, should be 50% more to operate then build.
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby Moonsword on Fri 11 Aug 2017 06:01

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:to the point that and ship costs 50% to operate then it did to build.


I'm trying to figure out how you got a 50% operational cost out of 15% maintenance.


He appears to be assuming ten turns of maintenance, no cost for extra ammunition or repairs.
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby Whitecold on Fri 11 Aug 2017 11:36

Moonsword wrote:
Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:to the point that and ship costs 50% to operate then it did to build.


I'm trying to figure out how you got a 50% operational cost out of 15% maintenance.


He appears to be assuming ten turns of maintenance, no cost for extra ammunition or repairs.

Are you slowing down the game, or why are you calculating with 10 turns?
If you slow down the game by a factor of 10, then you should logically scale maintenance with it. If you want uncompressed time, I'd multiply colonization costs, trade startup and construction costs, any one-time expediture by the slowdown factor, and leave income and maintenance alone, and calculate them all monthly. Mixing annual and monthly expenditures seems like a recipe to confusion to me.
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby Cralis on Fri 11 Aug 2017 12:51

SCC wrote:Research costs are also too high, a full turns worth worth of EL research costs 100 MCr + 20% of TGI, multiply that by 10 and well, yeah.

Of course there's problems with that to: TGI is calculated after modifiers for REI, Governor and anything else, like EVB, which probably shouldn't be included (At least for research purposes) and I'm assuming IU are still producing income per turn/month instead of annually, and this kinda leads to problems, what should have a monthly cost and what should have an annual cost?


It really depends upon your goals. You are talking about decompressing time, which means that research is going to occur over years, not months, and EL will change over decades not 1-2 years. If you want to decompress time but maintain the same rate of research, then why decompress time?

Cralis, that's a typo, should be 50% more to operate then build.


Got it. I assume you are talking about the cost over the lifetime of the unit in question, is that right?

If so then... that is absolutely true. Realistically speaking, that is. In compressed time it doesn't feel that way because you are constantly either replacing or refitting units because technology advances so quickly. But in decompressed time your ships will require years of maintenance between refit and replacement cycles.

Decompressing time makes everything slow and expensive. Much more realistic.

A decompressed strategy game plays VERY differently than the standard "compressed" game. It's also much more unforgiving because losses are harder to replace. On the other hand, it gives an incentive to repair and refit compared to the standard game, and most wars are over before technology changes much.

Many players find reality boring. Who knew? :lol:
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby SCC on Fri 11 Aug 2017 20:15

Cralis, I was pushing around ideas for decompressing by dropping tax income back to annual, that is every tenth turn, to make things a bit more real and to keep fleet numbers under control, when I noticed that under that a ship will cost 150% of it's list cost to maintain over the course of a year.
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby Cralis on Sat 12 Aug 2017 20:38

SCC wrote:Cralis, I was pushing around ideas for decompressing by dropping tax income back to annual, that is every tenth turn, to make things a bit more real and to keep fleet numbers under control, when I noticed that under that a ship will cost 150% of it's list cost to maintain over the course of a year.


Ah, I see where you're going with this. You want to decompress both time AND income. In the end, I think I just decompressed time. Honestly speaking, the income values are obscenely low with respect to reality anyway. A 2000 PU planet produces 2000 Million Credits (2 billion) per month... which is honestly obscenely low by our standards. We get around that by explaining that a "credit" is valued at significantly more than our currencies today. But honestly, it's just an arbitrary value. So decompressing time but leaving income and expenditures the same doesn't cause any issues (for me anyway).

BUT let's go back to maintenance. Maintenance costs in Starfire are approximately twice what they are for the United States Navy (as a percentage compared to construction costs) in real-life. We've considered increasing that cost to reduce the number of ships in the game (I think that's one of the ways Procyon's family keeps their ship counts so low, they both decrease income and increase the maintenance.)
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Re: Is Maintenance Too High?

Postby SCC on Sat 12 Aug 2017 20:56

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:Cralis, I was pushing around ideas for decompressing by dropping tax income back to annual, that is every tenth turn, to make things a bit more real and to keep fleet numbers under control, when I noticed that under that a ship will cost 150% of it's list cost to maintain over the course of a year.


Ah, I see where you're going with this. You want to decompress both time AND income. In the end, I think I just decompressed time. Honestly speaking, the income values are obscenely low with respect to reality anyway. A 2000 PU planet produces 2000 Million Credits (2 billion) per month... which is honestly obscenely low by our standards. We get around that by explaining that a "credit" is valued at significantly more than our currencies today. But honestly, it's just an arbitrary value. So decompressing time but leaving income and expenditures the same doesn't cause any issues (for me anyway).

Interstellar states in Starfire seem to devolve a lot of power to their planetary members, and the Players only deal with foreign affairs, the military, research, and colonization and not other maters like agriculture, justice and internal trade.
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