PCF

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Re: PCF

Postby Vandervecken on Mon 05 Jan 2015 01:38

Why waste ammo when a few small asteriods will do. Read Footfall, a Sci-Fic book. You don't need anything like the one in Armegeddon to do some serious damage. Those the size of a house, are simple to manipulate and aim, for population killing purposes at least; and are about as effective as a small nuke. As you will expect, the bigger the mass, the bigger the MESSS. A population without a defense force in orbit and beyond is very, very vulnerable to the whims of an attacker.

As for using militancy to see if an individual ship will continue the genocide - All I can say is that I hope there actually are more people like you in the world, because from my experiences dealing with humans and having been in the Military, once you stir up enough hatred (either real or propaganda), you can get them to do some nasty things, and having a martial mind set doesn't help. And according to the militancy rating of Starfire, there are many more races out there that can HATE and prosecute an enemy even more effectively than us humans.
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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Mon 05 Jan 2015 04:17

captnchuck wrote:true but once again if they are firing at fixed installations like forts then fine but it is going to be really really hard to hit a PCF from space. POpulation easy but then you are going to have people getting upset with you unless you are insane freaks like the Rigilians.


Eh, we can already do it with fair ease. We could, right now, launch either missiles or kinetic rods from orbit and strike just about anything with at most 1 meter resolution. That's good enough to kill an individual person.

You're best bet is to go with massive genocide penalties where everyone hates you. That's an economic and political reason that won't run afoul of reality.

Now you could have specialized space to surface missiles but you would need an observer to target it.


Huh? Why? You have complete visibility from orbit. We can already read license plates from orbit. It won't be hard to detect the movement of military vehicles and aircraft.

I think the Genocide rules should go further,your own pops should start rebelling against you.


You could have a chance of that, but keep in mind that I'm not sure that's entirely realistic unless you are talking about humans. And even then there are whole nations of us that have already participated (and are currently participating) in genocide.

[quoteI don't seem to recall in most sci fi fiction orbital bombardment taking out troops on a large scale except in Traveller and that is because of the liberal use of nukes due to the dampers and meson guns.[/quote]

Ian Douglas's USMC trilogy of trilogies (starts with Semper Mars, the first book of the Heritage trilogy). He uses orbital bombardment all the time, and in what I'd expect to be a very realistic way. He also has some neat things in the later books, such as space bombardment of space assets. I won't ruin it for you. Read the books, very cool. Oorah!

Ian Douglas's Star Carrier series has orbital bombardment of a human colony in the first book, and bombardment of the Earth from the outer Solar System by an alien fleet.

Heinlein's Starship Troopers has orbital bombardment on the planetary scale, not even counting the bugs using asteroids on the Earth.

Vandervecken wrote:Why waste ammo when a few small asteriods will do.


Except that generates those nasty genocide penalties, which is the whole point :)

As for using militancy to see if an individual ship will continue the genocide - All I can say is that I hope there actually are more people like you in the world, because from my experiences dealing with humans and having been in the Military, once you stir up enough hatred (either real or propaganda), you can get them to do some nasty things, and having a martial mind set doesn't help. And according to the militancy rating of Starfire, there are many more races out there that can HATE and prosecute an enemy even more effectively than us humans.


It really depends upon the time period and nation. While small units (i.e. PCF haha) are guilty of performing mass killings, killing of innocent, and worse; the reality is that there are only a few nations in modern history who commit real genocide (or ethnicities, to be honest). Of course if we go back a few thousand years, it was the standard way to deal with your enemy...
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Re: PCF

Postby Vandervecken on Tue 06 Jan 2015 03:09

Cralis wrote:are guilty of performing mass killings, killing of innocent, and worse; the reality is that there are only a few nations in modern history who commit real genocide


The souls of that lived in Dresden, Tokyo, Hirosima, and Nagasaki may differ with you, many children died in each. That was just 70 years ago. For the greater good, take out the enemy homeworld, they'll have to capitulate then. It took 1 beheading to get most of the U.S. to say "Bomb the I.S.I.S. into the stoneage". We are unfortunately much more bloodthirsty, as an entity that wishes to survive and breed, than most realize.

Ender's Game is another great example to learn by.

I remember when the Iranians took over the American Embassy. There were hundreds (really hundreds) of soldiers singing in one of the 82nd Airborne batallions courtyards "Nuke Iran" to the tune of "Duke of Earl". And even the smarter soldiers (S.F.) at Camp Mackall, where I was when the hostages were taken, were chanting similar stuff; knowing what a nuclear explosion would do to people (Children) and what the Soviet Union would do if we exploded one so close to it's borders. But it was soooo easy to fall into that mental attitude, I am still ashamed of myself for doing it over thirty years ago.


Cralis, if your Marine Captain said to you, you had to push that button so that our women and children would be safe from an Inhuman enemy that just won't stop till we are all dead (Whether it was true or false), would uninformed YOU be able to not push that button with your training?? Tough, eh?

Also remember that many Navies in our current era are not so filled with enlightened officers, but filled with personnel that have been spoon feed propganda about us evil , corrupt, and, decadent Americans from the time they could understand the state-run TV or printed word. Prove to me that we won't do the same when we run up against a even somewhat-belligerent (if not Hostile) Alien race.
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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Tue 06 Jan 2015 09:36

Vandervecken wrote:
Cralis wrote:are guilty of performing mass killings, killing of innocent, and worse; the reality is that there are only a few nations in modern history who commit real genocide


The souls of that lived in Dresden, Tokyo, Hirosima, and Nagasaki may differ with you, many children died in each. That was just 70 years ago. For the greater good, take out the enemy homeworld, they'll have to capitulate then. It took 1 beheading to get most of the U.S. to say "Bomb the I.S.I.S. into the stoneage". We are unfortunately much more bloodthirsty, as an entity that wishes to survive and breed, than most realize.


None of those examples are genocide. Not one. And despite the calls of some to "bomb ISIS to the stone age", we are still waging a limited campaign.

Honestly dude, none of this rises to genocide like the holocaust, the tribal genocides in the nigeria region, or the mass starvations from Stalin. Heck, your even in the right time period but using the wrong examples.

Ender's Game is another great example to learn by.


And is a fiction story.

I remember when the Iranians took over the American Embassy. There were hundreds (really hundreds) of soldiers singing in one of the 82nd Airborne batallions courtyards "Nuke Iran" to the tune of "Duke of Earl". And even the smarter soldiers (S.F.) at Camp Mackall, where I was when the hostages were taken, were chanting similar stuff; knowing what a nuclear explosion would do to people (Children) and what the Soviet Union would do if we exploded one so close to it's borders. But it was soooo easy to fall into that mental attitude, I am still ashamed of myself for doing it over thirty years ago.


And yet, it never happened. And what's with your focus on children? Would all of this suddenly be ok if no children were harmed? Are they somehow more important than everyone and everything else? Talk about trying to pull the emotional strings of manipulation...

Cralis, if your Marine Captain said to you, you had to push that button so that our women and children would be safe from an Inhuman enemy that just won't stop till we are all dead (Whether it was true or false), would uninformed YOU be able to not push that button with your training?? Tough, eh?


Fortunately for me, the United States Marine Corps believes in keeping their troops informed. And many a Marine has fought long and hard against genocide in places like Kosovo and Somalia.

Also remember that many Navies in our current era are not so filled with enlightened officers, but filled with personnel that have been spoon feed propganda about us evil , corrupt, and, decadent Americans from the time they could understand the state-run TV or printed word. Prove to me that we won't do the same when we run up against a even somewhat-belligerent (if not Hostile) Alien race.


Sure... followed by a massive media agenda to shame Americans for being such blood thirsty animals, supporting the killing of alien babies, prejudiced against because they aren't human and don't live on Earth. Showing interviews with politicians proclaiming that we should be suing for peace and pledging money to research the aliens so we can better understand how to invite them with open arms. And quoting random citizens on the street who proclaim "why won't we think of the (alien) children???"
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Re: PCF

Postby nukesnipe on Tue 06 Jan 2015 11:04

Cralis wrote:
captnchuck wrote:
I am doing this because in what like 20 years there has been even though there has been promise after promise of a Starfire ground system. I would have used Ogre but too tactical. Need it a bump up


Groundfire was something Task Force Games talked about buy never made. Marvin's position is that orbital bombardment makes any meaningful ground forces useless, so never built a ground combat game.

As for Ogre, what do you mean "too tactical?"

And I do really love the Ogre Designer's Edition! :)


Have you considered Two Hour Wargames Battalion Commander ( http://twohourwargames.com/51baco.html ) for your ground campaign? As the name implies, it's battalion level combat including infantry, armor, mechs, and air support. THW games are pretty easy to learn and play, and they can be played head-to-head, cooperative, or solitaire. It might be worth looking into.

I'm not a paid operative of THW; just a serious THW junkie. ;)
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Re: PCF

Postby Vandervecken on Wed 07 Jan 2015 03:01

Cralis wrote:While small units (i.e. PCF haha) are guilty of performing mass killings, killing of innocent, and worse; the reality is that there are only a few nations in modern history who commit ...


Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Bremen, London, others - Children died in those bombings - children are truely the innocents of the world. But I guess that as it was only a few hundred or maybe only a few thousand; they don't count. It wasn't genocide, so it must be all right if those children burned to death, eh. And that IS the problem. Human leaders have weighed in on history and have killed innocent people (including children), whenever those leaders thought that the greater good needed that kind of sacrifice to win a WAR. And World War II was the last war that could even be close to be compared to an all out war against another race.

In my personal opinion, we are just a step away from doing very bad things to ourselves. We humans go on a war footing on just about any pretense, especially with the right (er, wrong) kind of leadership. And we kill (often effectively and often not). And Americans are not guilt free. Not all strikes are like Bin Laden, but with weapons that cannot determine if a wife or daughter or baby is with the target. We have our eyes on the ground and in the skies to try to avoid non-military casualties but a few times in just the last few years, even with the knowledge that there were possible non-military targets in the camp or house; our own military made the choice to 'Go Ahead' and launch the drone's missiles for the greater good of America and the world. I'm glad they try to not harm innocents, but decisions have been made to use our arsenal where innocents were in danger and some have died. "For the greater good".

1, 10, 100, 1000, 1 million, 1 billion: how many innocents does it take for something to be labeled an atrocity in the modern world. When you are not killing the enemy individually, when you use a bomb or a spray or a rock from space, you are a step back and it gets easier to rationalize those questions of "For the greater good". And when a political system as good as the United States can go to war like we did for BUSH II, where none of the primary reasons given to us by our President were close to true, I can only hope that our future is better than what I can currently envision. We are the current leader in Arms sales to the World - capitalism at it's finest. We don't kill villagers in Nambia, we just arm the guys. We make a profit and only send our solders to fight the "Good" fights, Bah !!!

The day our world can have ZERO active conflicts for a month is the day hell will freeze over. We wear the vineer of civilization, but in our blood still flows a semi-barbaric DNA make-up that will take thousands of more years to to dillute if we can or even want to. I'm very glad that so many of us are really trying to become/stay enlightened to higher thinking, but please don't fool yourselves. Humanity, caN AND will do some pretty nasty things if we were ever threatened by an outside influence. And there are many Hawkish governments and militaries out there at this time, some may be closer to home than us enlightened folk think.

Which just means that if I was playing a Starfire game, I believe that a High Militancy race will have no problem finding a reason or excuse to keep bombing populations until the race has been removed. They may feel remorse after (or even during) the process, but it was either US or THEM, and it seemed best if 'US' won. Especially if the RC or RD is also high.
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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Wed 07 Jan 2015 09:42

Vandervecken wrote:Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Bremen, London, others - Children died in those bombings - children are truely the innocents of the world.


My point is that you can't single out children. Woman don't count? Men, because they are men? Innocents and civilians are still innocents and civilians, no matter who you are. How old is irrelevant. You can't make this distinction for the rules.

Human leaders have weighed in on history and have killed innocent people (including children), whenever those leaders thought that the greater good needed that kind of sacrifice to win a WAR. And World War II was the last war that could even be close to be compared to an all out war against another race.


That is what we call collateral damage. It is unfortunate, but also it cannot be avoided unless you want to lose. Especially when your opponent is using innocents as human shields, as happens a lot in the middle east today.

In my personal opinion, we are just a step away from doing very bad things to ourselves.


Evil triumphs when good people do nothing to stop it. Has this ever NOT been the case?

1, 10, 100, 1000, 1 million, 1 billion: how many innocents does it take for something to be labeled an atrocity in the modern world.


I understand your question (even though you forgot the question mark). However an atrocity happens, it does not rise to the level of genocide unless the population is targeted for elimination. THAT is the problem here. You have diverged from the topic. I'm not sure why.

Which just means that if I was playing a Starfire game, I believe that a High Militancy race will have no problem finding a reason or excuse to keep bombing populations until the race has been removed. They may feel remorse after (or even during) the process, but it was either US or THEM, and it seemed best if 'US' won. Especially if the RC or RD is also high.


Yep. Still don't see how this changes the definition of genocide (as per the STARFIRE rules).
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Re: PCF

Postby nukesnipe on Wed 07 Jan 2015 11:36

in THW's 5150: Battalion Commander, three squads of ~8-12 figures, a platoon leader and any platoon assests (heavy weapons, etc.) make a platoon; two platoons with a command element and a company asset make a company; and, three companies and a command element comprise a battalion.

Platoons are usually based in stands of 4 figures, or 2 to 3 stands per platoon. If one were to scale everything up, then:

1. An individual figure could represent a squad.
1. A 5150 BC squad ( 1 stand of 3-4 figures) could represent a company.
2. A 5150 BC platoon (3 stands consisting of about a dozen figures) could represent a battalion
3. A 5150 BC company (9-10 stands of ~40 figures) could represent a regiment
4. A 5150 BC battalion (27-30 stands of about 120 figures) could represent a division

Fielding multiple divisions per side could be a chore, but this could give one the "feel" or "flavor" of operational level.

Of course, one could always let a figure represent a platoon which should result in a division being represented by 9-10 stands of about 40 figures, allowing one to field 3 divisions with something over a hundred figures on 30 or so stands.

Just some thoughts. ;)
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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Wed 07 Jan 2015 12:33

Modern militaries generally work on a rule of 3 or 4.

3 or 4 men make a squad ( or with vehicles, a platoon)
3 or 4 squads make a platoon
3 or 4 platoons make a company
3 or 4 companies make a battalion
3 or 4 battalions make a regiment
etc.

Personally I think whether 3 or 4 depends on whether the officer who does unit organization likes symmetry or not...
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Re: PCF

Postby procyon on Thu 08 Jan 2015 00:05

Cralis wrote:Evil triumphs when good people do nothing to stop it. Has this ever NOT been the case?


Evil is defined by the victors in almost all cases.

Cralis wrote:However an atrocity happens, it does not rise to the level of genocide unless the population is targeted for elimination. THAT is the problem here.


Vandervecken wrote:Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Bremen, London, others


Ummm....
In all of the named locations (with the possible exception of Hiroshima) - they were targeted for the civilian population & industrial centers.. Not military units.

In most all of the WWII allied strategic bombing targets - it would have qualified in starfire as genocide. The collateral damage of PTU when destroying Qv/Qt doesn't count, but collateral damage for eliminating IU does even in Solar. And the cities were not targetted to eliminate military units.

We even take issue in our games with the destruction of PTU when ground troops (Qv/Qt) are eliminated. Taking out the 20 Qv/Qt on an outpost with nukes - which happens to also take out the entire population - for us is still genocide and has fallout. If you wipe a rock clean - it is pretty hard to convince the other side that you 'were only targeting the military units'.
For our games, the only way to avoid that problem is to use ground troops. Everything else incurs genocide penalties. For the same reaon the US didn't just carpet bomb Iraq or Afghanistan with FAE's or nukes. We could say we were only targetting the 'terrorists' and the rest was collateral damage. Pretty sure the rest of the world would tend to disagree. But that could be a whole thread, all to its own (and I am pretty sure it has been).
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Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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