PCF

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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Thu 08 Jan 2015 01:32

procyon wrote:
Cralis wrote:Evil triumphs when good people do nothing to stop it. Has this ever NOT been the case?


Evil is defined by the victors in almost all cases.


Nice escapism. Nearly all people can agree on some things that are evil, if for no other reason than it tends to kill or damage people.

In all of the named locations (with the possible exception of Hiroshima) - they were targeted for the civilian population & industrial centers.. Not military units.

In most all of the WWII allied strategic bombing targets - it would have qualified in starfire as genocide.


Maybe I said it poorly, but that's the key here. He was talking about those being "genocide as we define it in real life" when they really aren't... genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide?s=t

That is also why I said that we are moving off-topic. What we care about is how STARFIRE defines genocide. And our definition is different (more inclusive) for two reasons: 1. to reflect the fact that an empire/population is going to care when a large number of their people are destroyed, intentional or not; and 2. to prevent player abuse of any weaker mechanic.

The collateral damage of PTU when destroying Qv/Qt doesn't count, but collateral damage for eliminating IU does even in Solar. And the cities were not targeted to eliminate military units.

We even take issue in our games with the destruction of PTU when ground troops (Qv/Qt) are eliminated. Taking out the 20 Qv/Qt on an outpost with nukes - which happens to also take out the entire population - for us is still genocide and has fallout. If you wipe a rock clean - it is pretty hard to convince the other side that you 'were only targeting the military units'.


Actually I've thought about making that a function of RM. Roll to see if they care... modifiers for the number of PTU destroyed. But humans always care, even those of us who hide missiles in hospitals and schools and line up woman and children so soldiers can shoot from behind them.

But you're at war with those people. So it's just bad blood on already bad blood between the two of you. What really matters is whether your allies and other empires care. Bombing a factory city to try and burn it to the ground? Yuck, but hey it's war. Marching through the country and killing every last man, woman, and child (or their alien equivalent)... to arms! We don't keep trade treaties with lunatics like you! In fact, just stay out of our borders or it's war time...

But as I said, that's how STARFIRE looks at it. It's not the reality, which is much stickier, messier, and true genocide resembles GFFP.

For our games, the only way to avoid that problem is to use ground troops. Everything else incurs genocide penalties. For the same reaon the US didn't just carpet bomb Iraq or Afghanistan with FAE's or nukes. We could say we were only targetting the 'terrorists' and the rest was collateral damage. Pretty sure the rest of the world would tend to disagree. But that could be a whole thread, all to its own (and I am pretty sure it has been).


LOL yeah, when the rest of the world isn't doing it themselves. But you're right. So let's stick with the rules. Of course, if the penalty is high enough, ground troops will look a lot more attractive...
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Re: PCF

Postby darbycmcd on Thu 08 Jan 2015 09:41

I agree with stick to the rules. It is... entertaining but fruitless, I think, to argue about what alien race A would do if race X killed too many 'civilians' of race B.... It is a bit like arguing what the nature of terrestrial warfare will be 'realistically' when reactionless, inertialless drive mounting ships come through warp points and attack alien races. It is probably much more useful to just talk about what game effects we want.

I am interested in the 5150 games, but haven't pulled the trigger yet on them. I keep looking for the system that hits the sweet spot between detail and low complexity, hahahaha basically starfire but a system that plays out a bit less flat on the table. I just got Squadron Strike from ad astra... this is not low complexity. How are the space combat games for the 5150 system?

also, back to the original theme of the thread, also maybe look at Renegade Legion Prefect. I think there might be some ideas there. But it mostly uses a map, which might be a pain for starfire. That is what makes me think that Gurps has some potential, abstract but lots of decision points.....
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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Thu 08 Jan 2015 12:36

darbycmcd wrote:I am interested in the 5150 games, but haven't pulled the trigger yet on them. I keep looking for the system that hits the sweet spot between detail and low complexity, hahahaha basically starfire but a system that plays out a bit less flat on the table. I just got Squadron Strike from ad astra... this is not low complexity. How are the space combat games for the 5150 system?


I have not played any 5150 games but since this topic brought them to my attention, I've been considering giving them a try.

also, back to the original theme of the thread, also maybe look at Renegade Legion Prefect. I think there might be some ideas there. But it mostly uses a map, which might be a pain for starfire. That is what makes me think that Gurps has some potential, abstract but lots of decision points.....


I really like Ogre, especially now that I have the designer's edition. Even thought about using the Ogres as Machine Race and/or J'Rill ground forces (or something like that).
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Re: PCF

Postby igycrctl on Thu 08 Jan 2015 14:38

Cralis wrote:But as I said, that's how STARFIRE looks at it. It's not the reality, which is much stickier, messier, and true genocide resembles GFFP.

What is GFFP? Is this a Starfire term?
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Re: PCF

Postby igycrctl on Thu 08 Jan 2015 14:39

igycrctl wrote:What is GFFP? Is this a Starfire term?

Nevermind, I found it.
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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Thu 08 Jan 2015 16:45

In case anyone else has not heard it, "GFFP" means "Genocide For Fun and Profit" and was a term coined during Classic Starfire in the '90s to represent the strategy of bombarding all populations you encounter and then colonizing on top of the cinders. It is a very profitable strategy in 3rd edition, and viable in later editions.
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Re: PCF

Postby nukesnipe on Thu 08 Jan 2015 20:23

I haven't thought about GFFP in years!

This is not a plug for THW, just a detailed answer to a question asked on the forum....

I have the three THW space combat games (Star Navy, Fighter Command and Carrier Command) but haven't actually played them yet - I waiting to purchase some Starfire miniatures to use in the game. You don't need miniatures to play (paper counters will suffice), but it gives me added justification with She Who Must Be Obeyed when it comes time for Cralis' attempt to bankrupt me, but I digress. The THW blog, http://2hourblog.blogspot.com/, has several detailed AARs with photographs that might prove useful in your decision making.

The THW games are not that complicated (considerably less than Squadron Strike and Attack Vector: Tactical, and to an extent Starfire), but they are heavy with setup tables due to the ability to play the games solitaire. Once you actually get to playing, you tend to use only a couple of tables which are pretty quickly memorized.

The games usually come in three flavors: a platoon/company level game, a "large army" of battalion/regimental size, and an "immersive" role-playing game. The games pretty much dove tail together, so the character you use in the role playing game can be used in the platoon level game, which can be used in the battalion level game. Pretty much works the same way for the space combat games. All the games can be played as linked "encounter" campaigns.

All of the games - and I mean all of them: space combat, land combat, pirates, fantasy, medieval, pulp, zombie, etc. - use the THW "Reaction" engine. The core rules, "Chain Reaction" (modern combat) and "Swordplay" (sword and sorcery) are free for download from the THW site, http://www.twohourwargames.com/free.html , and are stand alone games in themselves. You can even blend the two together into what folks on the THW forum call "Sword Reaction". The AAR of the urban street gang running into a band of Orcs and Ogres was hilarious....

If you are thinking about the THW games, I'd download the free rules and give them a run. They form the basis for the mechanics of the space combat games.
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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Fri 09 Jan 2015 00:39

nukesnipe wrote:...I waiting to purchase some Starfire miniatures to use in the game. You don't need miniatures to play (paper counters will suffice), but it gives me added justification with She Who Must Be Obeyed when it comes time for Cralis' attempt to bankrupt me, but I digress.


Now you just need to know the trick. You buy a few miniatures this week, a couple more next week... or just find some that she likes and order them together :)

I've had to and am doing this...
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Re: PCF

Postby Vandervecken on Fri 09 Jan 2015 06:42

Cralis wrote: He was talking about those being "genocide as we define it in real life" when they really aren't...


NO, I brought up the Cities that were destroyed by firestorms due to massive bombing and the two nuked cities because you mentioned the in your quote below that 'killing of innocents' as an act that a unit (PCF) did. I wanted to point out that the killing of innocents (children, babies, adults, men, women,mutants, ...) was carried out by the orders of larger agencies, all the way up to Country leadership and Allied Leadership. You went from small units to acts of True Genocide by large Governments with no middle ground.
I have seen the middle ground, it still kills innocents, sometimes its one, or a few, sometimes the number is in the hundreds and thousands. Did any of you have the experience of having a child of the 'Enemy' die in your sight? In your arms? I hope I am the only one in this forum that has. I have seen when 'Collateral Damage' to the government/military becomes a statistic; not a life anymore. Yea, that experience just might make me fixate on children as innocents. That's all.

Cralis wrote: While small units (i.e. PCF haha) are guilty of performing mass killings, killing of innocent, and worse; the reality is that there are only a few nations in modern history who commit real genocide (or ethnicities, to be honest).
I weary of the chasssse. Wait for me. I will be mercccciful and quick.
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Re: PCF

Postby Cralis on Fri 09 Jan 2015 11:38

You make the very human mistake of assuming you alone are the only one who has had such a life experience, primarily because you're also making the very human mistake of assuming that your feelings and thoughts are the only valid way to respond to that experience. You are not. And it is not the only valid response.
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