AI/MR PU growth/emplacement

[krenshala]

I know Todd Kess, myself, and a couple others had some emails on the list shortly before this forum was opened up about Machine Intelligence growth, PU emplacement and transportation of same. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have kept any but the initial email on that thread.

The gist of the discussion was: do the Machines really need to use Qv to transport "colonists" to a new planet, since said P(T)U are going to be "assembled" once the infrastructure is in place? I remember that Todd and I were talking about the fact that it cost 10 MC per PU to "grow", so can the machines just ship said PU in H, and then we drifted into the realm of, "Well, do they need Qv for invasion troops? Can't they just build them at the invasion site as well?" What I don't remember are the details (numbers) of the discussion on H requirements for said shipping.

So, I'd like to restart that coversation.

It cost 10 MC + emplacement and shipping costs to put a single Machine Intelligence PU (aka PTU) on a new colony site. Per the rules, it takes 10 Qv to ship 1 PTU, regardless of destination. While 10 MC is only 5% of an H if it was transported as "wealth", I don't see a problem with changing that 10 Qv to 10 H + required emplacement H (per table L5.03).

Also, once the Machines have 1 PU emplaced, do they need to purchase the infrastructure for future growth, or is that part of the "10 MC per PU for growth" listed in the Section Y rules for the racial type?

[Crucis]

Larry, if you switch from using Q's to using H's for AI/MR races for colonization, this will functionally reduce shipping costs by 3 MC per PTU. (Math: Reduction from Qv=1.6 to H=1.0 = 0.6, then reduced to 0.3 with the colonization rebate, and 0.3 times 10 == 3.0 Mc.) Thus, that 10 Mc premium for "creating" a new MR PTU would actually cost only 7 Mc, if you're shipping that PTU off to a new colony. (Of course, you can't get this little 3 Mc savings if you create the PTU for growth on the same world.)

It seems that switching from Q to H, while logical from a psuedo-realism PoV, from an economic PoV, this change would create changes in the economic balance between those races and "normal" races.



Let me step back for a moment and address whether or not AI/MR races should need Qv or not. I'd say that they wouldn't need Quarters systems as organic races understand them. OTOH, maybe Quarters systems for MR races represents other things that are necessary for their survival. Assuming that all MR "individuals" are created on the world where the "colonists" are drawn from, I don't think that it's a stretch to say that each MR colonist is going to require a somewhat similar amount of space as is needed by a cryo-tubed normal organic race colonist.

A KEY phrase in the description of Ultra's AI/MR races is "Even though they are not organic beings, their complex AI is as vulnerable to radiation as organic life forms ..." So perhaps it is this similar vulnerability indicates a similar need for some form of "quarters" functionality that while not exactly the same as those used by organic races, is somewhat similar in intent.



As for ... "Well, do they need Qv for invasion troops? Can't they just build them at the invasion site as well?"

Well, see my thoughts above on the need for Qv for MR troops. MR troops should really be no different than MR colonists or MR crew members in their lack of radiation tolerance, and thus having a need for some form of "MR Quarters".

As for building them on-site, I'd definitely say "no". I'd say that MR troops or MR colonists or MR "whatever" would need to be built back on some populated world that has factories that are dedicated to manufacturing new MR "people" and training them.



===


Now, I suppose that one could debate the entire Ultra AI description statement of "Even though they are not organic beings, their complex AI is as vulnerable to radiation as organic life forms ...". I suppose that it's a debatable statement from a pseudo-realism PoV. Personally, I think back to Isaac Asimov's robot character R. Daneel Olivaw who stated that the positronic brains of robots were just as vulnerable to radiation as humans (towards the end of the novel "Foundation and Earth", IIRC).

And from a larger perspective, if MR's weren't vulnerable to radiation similarly to organic races, this would seem to indicate that they could find nearly any environment to be "benign". And it doesn't take a brain surgeon or an economics major to see how that would make MR's massively more powerful economically.

While I do support the idea of AI/MR races being "as vulnerable to radiation as organic life forms", I think that an argument could be made, even with this vulnerability, that AI/MR races shouldn't be affected by differences in HI on Type T/ST worlds. The various items (hydrographic percentage, gravity, atmospheric density, and so on and so on) that the Habitability Index describes amorphously just don't seem to be things that should affect MR's, even MR's that are "vulnerable to radiation". Thus, it would seem that any MR that's native to a T/ST world would seem to immune to the relatively subtle differences that HI represents and should see any other T/ST world as "benign".

I suppose that an argument could be made that the gravitational differences between T and ST worlds could represent a minor difficulty for MR's. Not in terms of atmospheric density differences, but simply the gravitational difference itself. But honestly, I'm a bit hard pressed to see it being that big a deal for robots that aren't going to get tired. At worst, I could see it costing a tiny bit more for T-world MR's to colonize a ST world, to adjust the MR individuals to properly function in the higher gravity, and vice-verse for ST-world MR's colonizing a T world. But beyond that rather minor (possibly so minor that it should really be below our notice) issue, I don't see how this "should" limit an MR's population limits.

HOWEVER, I recognize that this would have a serious impact in economic balance, and thus would probably be banned, though it would be nice to have a rational "pseudo-reality" justification why this would be so.

[krenshala]

I hadn't considered the difference in price between Qv and H for shipping purposes. Machines do not get the colonization rebate, however. This means the savings is 6Mc (10 H for 10Mc instead of 10 Qv at 16Mc). Hmm ... I suppose if one were to allow using H instead of Qv for shipping machine populations it would make sense to increase the requirements from 10 to 16 H + emplacement H. That would at least maintain the current economic side of things.

As for the "trained at home" vs "built in place" for invasion Qv (troops) I can go either way on that. I'm thinking that if the shipping costs match (a concern that, again, I hadn't considered before your reply, Fred) it shouldn't matter from the strategic standpoint.

What about the question of whether new growth pays emplacement costs? If it doesn't then the machines should never pay to emplace more than 1 PTU on any colony site. From an economic standpoint it would be silly to do otherwise. Place 1 PTU (58Mc total - 10 Mc for the 1 PTU, 16 Mc for 10 Qv shipping, and 32 Mc to emplace), and the following month spend 590 Mc to "grow" another 59 to reach the 60 PU limit for a desolate moon, or place 60 PTU (3360 Mc total). Its a savings of 2712 Mc to only emplace the first PU.

[Crucis]

I hadn't considered the difference in price between Qv and H for shipping purposes. Machines do not get the colonization rebate, however.

My bad. I missed the sentence in the AI race rule stating that they don't get the colonization rebate.

This means the savings is 6Mc (10 H for 10Mc instead of 10 Qv at 16Mc). Hmm ... I suppose if one were to allow using H instead of Qv for shipping machine populations it would make sense to increase the requirements from 10 to 16 H + emplacement H. That would at least maintain the current economic side of things.

But if you balance it out from an economic perspective, why bother worrying about it then?

Personally, I think that a strong argument can be made that even AI races require their own form of "life support", even if it bears little resemblance to what any organic race would think of as life support.

As for the "trained at home" vs "built in place" for invasion Qv (troops) I can go either way on that. I'm thinking that if the shipping costs match (a concern that, again, I hadn't considered before your reply, Fred) it shouldn't matter from the strategic standpoint.

What about the question of whether new growth pays emplacement costs? If it doesn't then the machines should never pay to emplace more than 1 PTU on any colony site. From an economic standpoint it would be silly to do otherwise. Place 1 PTU (58Mc total - 10 Mc for the 1 PTU, 16 Mc for 10 Qv shipping, and 32 Mc to emplace), and the following month spend 590 Mc to "grow" another 59 to reach the 60 PU limit for a desolate moon, or place 60 PTU (3360 Mc total). Its a savings of 2712 Mc to only emplace the first PU.

I think that you are making a potentially flawed assumption here, Larry, regarding AI Race growth. (The key word is "potentially".) In the AI race rule, when it speak about AI race growth costing 10 Mc per PTU, it's not at all clear whether this "growth" is performed using the normal pop growth rules, or if the growth PTU's are "constructed" outside of the normal pop growth rules. My first inclination is to say that it occurs as a minor variant of the normal pop growth rules, and that you just cannot "build" new AI race PTU's like you'd build new tech items. As you suggest, if you were to simply build AI race PTU's not unlike some other tech item, it would seem to me to throw off many of the game's economic balances.



I think that this last paragraph points out a flaw (at least IMHO) in the AI race rules. By their nature (essentially being robots), AI races are very different from normal organic races in many different ways. And it's difficult for people to make assumptions that robots would be subject to the same limitations as organic races. I have to wonder if one couldn't spend a couple of full pages in the rules describing where AI "robot" races are different (in specific detail) from organic races and where they are the same (also in specific detail, at times).

For example, what's the exact process by which AI race populations "grow"? (This refers to your final paragraph above.)

Or is an AI race on a Type T planet similar to organic T planet races relative to other planetary environments? For example, would a Type T planet AI race see an O2 (aka B) planet as a "desolate" environment?

Are AI races possible on non-T/ST planets, if one is using the Unusual Races rules? And if so, then presumably, a AI race that's native to a Gas Giant would view the other planet types similarly to organic Gas Giant races...

Or as I questioned in my previous post, why would AI robots see ANY environmental difference on T/ST planets based on the factors subsumed by the Habitability Index? Why would any robot care about things like hydrographic percentages or mild differences in an ecosphere's chemical composition that may be of concern to organic life? Why shouldn't an AI race from a Type T planet treat all type T planets as "benign" regardless of the HI? (I realize that this would have profound economic effects, if it were to be the case. But I just cannot accept that as the only answer. There ought to be some sort of psuedo-science reason to justify it. Or allow it to be true, while balancing it in other ways.)

Anyways, it just seems that AI races represent too profound a difference from organic life forms to be covered in less than a quarter of a single page. There are too many potential questions that person with a mild understanding of robots from fiction, etc. would have difficulty assuming that AI race "robots" would be the "same" as organics, without some explanations, etc.

[krenshala]

Hmm ... I suppose if one were to allow using H instead of Qv for shipping machine populations it would make sense to increase the requirements from 10 to 16 H + emplacement H. That would at least maintain the current economic side of things.

But if you balance it out from an economic perspective, why bother worrying about it then?

Because, before your comment I hadn't considered the cost different in shipping. My thought is that, its a machine, why ship it (be it "new population" or "troops") in anything other than boxes since its "just a machine", even if it can think when assembled and powered up.

Personally, I think that a strong argument can be made that even AI races require their own form of "life support", even if it bears little resemblance to what any organic race would think of as life support.

Oh, I agree they need the equivalent of life-support, which is why I am not proposing to change the Q requirements for large units. I just think it makes more sense (admittedly, from a psuedo-realism PoV) for a machine race to transport its populations and troops all boxed up for shipping instead of packed away as meat-sickles like the meat-races do. If it is unbalancing to have them do this, I don't have a problem keeping them just like the meat-races when it comes to PTU and invasion Qv shipping.

Basically, I'm looking for more variety. Kind of like when my friend and I decided to think up all the possible government/racial types we could (which, incidentally, became the GSF government type table after Marvin moved a few of them around to balance things better ... I think the idea started when my friend asked me why National Socialism wasn't included, and "Why in gods name is this one listed as Stalinist-Leninist Communism?! Those two are completely different from each other! And where is true communism?" ).

What about the question of whether new growth pays emplacement costs? If it doesn't then the machines should never pay to emplace more than 1 PTU on any colony site. From an economic standpoint it would be silly to do otherwise. Place 1 PTU (58Mc total - 10 Mc for the 1 PTU, 16 Mc for 10 Qv shipping, and 32 Mc to emplace), and the following month spend 590 Mc to "grow" another 59 to reach the 60 PU limit for a desolate moon, or place 60 PTU (3360 Mc total). Its a savings of 2712 Mc to only emplace the first PU.

I think that you are making a potentially flawed assumption here, Larry, regarding AI Race growth. (The key word is "potentially".) In the AI race rule, when it speak about AI race growth costing 10 Mc per PTU, it's not at all clear whether this "growth" is performed using the normal pop growth rules, or if the growth PTU's are "constructed" outside of the normal pop growth rules. My first inclination is to say that it occurs as a minor variant of the normal pop growth rules, and that you just cannot "build" new AI race PTU's like you'd build new tech items. As you suggest, if you were to simply build AI race PTU's not unlike some other tech item, it would seem to me to throw off many of the game's economic balances.

Actually, the rule states "They must pay 10 Mc for each PU of growth and must pay 10 Mc for each Bonus PTU (for colonization) grown. All emplacement costs are doubled and no colonization rebate is given." This is worded such that PU and PTU "growth" are different. You have to emplace at least 1 PU (which is 1 PTU) to get a colony started, but it doesn't say whether expanding that colony requires PU growth, or PTU emplacement, which is what prompted this part of my question.

I think that this last paragraph points out a flaw (at least IMHO) in the AI race rules. By their nature (essentially being robots), AI races are very different from normal organic races in many different ways. And it's difficult for people to make assumptions that robots would be subject to the same limitations as organic races. I have to wonder if one couldn't spend a couple of full pages in the rules describing where AI "robot" races are different (in specific detail) from organic races and where they are the same (also in specific detail, at times).

For example, what's the exact process by which AI race populations "grow"? (This refers to your final paragraph above.)

Or is an AI race on a Type T planet similar to organic T planet races relative to other planetary environments? For example, would a Type T planet AI race see an O2 (aka B) planet as a "desolate" environment?

Are AI races possible on non-T/ST planets, if one is using the Unusual Races rules? And if so, then presumably, a AI race that's native to a Gas Giant would view the other planet types similarly to organic Gas Giant races...

Or as I questioned in my previous post, why would AI robots see ANY environmental difference on T/ST planets based on the factors subsumed by the Habitability Index? Why would any robot care about things like hydrographic percentages or mild differences in an ecosphere's chemical composition that may be of concern to organic life? Why shouldn't an AI race from a Type T planet treat all type T planets as "benign" regardless of the HI? (I realize that this would have profound economic effects, if it were to be the case. But I just cannot accept that as the only answer. There ought to be some sort of psuedo-science reason to justify it. Or allow it to be true, while balancing it in other ways.)

Anyways, it just seems that AI races represent too profound a difference from organic life forms to be covered in less than a quarter of a single page. There are too many potential questions that person with a mild understanding of robots from fiction, etc. would have difficulty assuming that AI race "robots" would be the "same" as organics, without some explanations, etc.

I definitely agree (mostly) with you on this. The one place we differ is that I can see keeping the Type T HI cost differences because a carbon-based, water rich environment is very corrosive. Of course, a barren/desolate/extreme environment has its own hazards that are equally bad. For this reason I think the Type T emplacement costs could be higher, (though perhaps not as high as extreme environments), while I believe desolate could reasonably be argued to have the lowest cost (need to provide radiation protection and heat dispersement, but the lack of air/water means its unlikely to corrode the machinery) for a machine race.

Again, my end goal is variety in the game races, because little differnces like "these guys ship their people all boxed up, while the hive over there stuffs 'em in like sardines!" are what make the game fun for me.

[krenshala]

BTW, while the use of Artificial Intelligence instead of the classic Machine Race from GSF on is because thats how I put it in my suggested racial/government list, I've come to the conclusion that I like Machine Intelligence better. I think it better fits the proposed nature of the race better than either of the other two. The artificial part is, I think, what I dislike the most about my own suggestion that ended up part of the rules.

[Crucis]

Hmm ... I suppose if one were to allow using H instead of Qv for shipping machine populations it would make sense to increase the requirements from 10 to 16 H + emplacement H. That would at least maintain the current economic side of things.

But if you balance it out from an economic perspective, why bother worrying about it then?

Because, before your comment I hadn't considered the cost different in shipping. My thought is that, its a machine, why ship it (be it "new population" or "troops") in anything other than boxes since its "just a machine", even if it can think when assembled and powered up.

Personally, I think that a strong argument can be made that even AI races require their own form of "life support", even if it bears little resemblance to what any organic race would think of as life support.

Oh, I agree they need the equivalent of life-support, which is why I am not proposing to change the Q requirements for large units. I just think it makes more sense (admittedly, from a psuedo-realism PoV) for a machine race to transport its populations and troops all boxed up for shipping instead of packed away as meat-sickles like the meat-races do. If it is unbalancing to have them do this, I don't have a problem keeping them just like the meat-races when it comes to PTU and invasion Qv shipping.

I guess that my point is that AI Race "robots" would still be packed away in containers not unlike those of cryotubes for a similarly shaped organic races. The robo-tubes may not be much more than glorified packing crates, but what the heck.

Basically, I'm looking for more variety. Kind of like when my friend and I decided to think up all the possible government/racial types we could (which, incidentally, became the GSF government type table after Marvin moved a few of them around to balance things better ... I think the idea started when my friend asked me why National Socialism wasn't included, and "Why in gods name is this one listed as Stalinist-Leninist Communism?! Those two are completely different from each other! And where is true communism?" ).

So I get to blame you for Ultra having two different government types for the same thing, i.e. Fascism and National Socialism? That one has irked me since I first read it.


Regardless, I don't mind the variety, though as I stated before, I think that for something as profoundly different like AI races, the rules really need to spend more than 1/4 of a page. There are simply too many open questions in my mind when I read the AI rules due to the logical differences between normal organic races and AI "robot" races.

What about the question of whether new growth pays emplacement costs? If it doesn't then the machines should never pay to emplace more than 1 PTU on any colony site. From an economic standpoint it would be silly to do otherwise. Place 1 PTU (58Mc total - 10 Mc for the 1 PTU, 16 Mc for 10 Qv shipping, and 32 Mc to emplace), and the following month spend 590 Mc to "grow" another 59 to reach the 60 PU limit for a desolate moon, or place 60 PTU (3360 Mc total). Its a savings of 2712 Mc to only emplace the first PU.

I think that you are making a potentially flawed assumption here, Larry, regarding AI Race growth. (The key word is "potentially".) In the AI race rule, when it speak about AI race growth costing 10 Mc per PTU, it's not at all clear whether this "growth" is performed using the normal pop growth rules, or if the growth PTU's are "constructed" outside of the normal pop growth rules. My first inclination is to say that it occurs as a minor variant of the normal pop growth rules, and that you just cannot "build" new AI race PTU's like you'd build new tech items. As you suggest, if you were to simply build AI race PTU's not unlike some other tech item, it would seem to me to throw off many of the game's economic balances.

Actually, the rule states "They must pay 10 Mc for each PU of growth and must pay 10 Mc for each Bonus PTU (for colonization) grown. All emplacement costs are doubled and no colonization rebate is given." This is worded such that PU and PTU "growth" are different. You have to emplace at least 1 PU (which is 1 PTU) to get a colony started, but it doesn't say whether expanding that colony requires PU growth, or PTU emplacement, which is what prompted this part of my question.[/quote]

This is where people would start asking logical questions about what differences exist between organic races and robot races, as you have done. And this is why, IMHO, a more verbose description covering the differences and similarities between organic and robot races would come in handy.

Personally, the way that I'm reading the overly terse rules on this ... natural growth for AI races occurs (sort as) normal in the normal locations, except that you have to pay for every PU or PTU grown, rather than getting them for free. But that doesn't mean that you can expect to expand a robot race colony in a manner that really any different from how normal races' colonies expand. Whatever growth may occur on the colony will be very minimal (same as would be true for an organic race). And if you want to more quickly expand the colony's robot population, you'd need to bring in colonists from elsewhere.

I think that this last paragraph points out a flaw (at least IMHO) in the AI race rules. By their nature (essentially being robots), AI races are very different from normal organic races in many different ways. And it's difficult for people to make assumptions that robots would be subject to the same limitations as organic races. I have to wonder if one couldn't spend a couple of full pages in the rules describing where AI "robot" races are different (in specific detail) from organic races and where they are the same (also in specific detail, at times).

For example, what's the exact process by which AI race populations "grow"? (This refers to your final paragraph above.)

Or is an AI race on a Type T planet similar to organic T planet races relative to other planetary environments? For example, would a Type T planet AI race see an O2 (aka B) planet as a "desolate" environment?

Are AI races possible on non-T/ST planets, if one is using the Unusual Races rules? And if so, then presumably, a AI race that's native to a Gas Giant would view the other planet types similarly to organic Gas Giant races...

Or as I questioned in my previous post, why would AI robots see ANY environmental difference on T/ST planets based on the factors subsumed by the Habitability Index? Why would any robot care about things like hydrographic percentages or mild differences in an ecosphere's chemical composition that may be of concern to organic life? Why shouldn't an AI race from a Type T planet treat all type T planets as "benign" regardless of the HI? (I realize that this would have profound economic effects, if it were to be the case. But I just cannot accept that as the only answer. There ought to be some sort of psuedo-science reason to justify it. Or allow it to be true, while balancing it in other ways.)

Anyways, it just seems that AI races represent too profound a difference from organic life forms to be covered in less than a quarter of a single page. There are too many potential questions that person with a mild understanding of robots from fiction, etc. would have difficulty assuming that AI race "robots" would be the "same" as organics, without some explanations, etc.

I definitely agree (mostly) with you on this. The one place we differ is that I can see keeping the Type T HI cost differences because a carbon-based, water rich environment is very corrosive. Of course, a barren/desolate/extreme environment has its own hazards that are equally bad. For this reason I think the Type T emplacement costs could be higher, (though perhaps not as high as extreme environments), while I believe desolate could reasonably be argued to have the lowest cost (need to provide radiation protection and heat dispersement, but the lack of air/water means its unlikely to corrode the machinery) for a machine race.

I think that you missed one of my points.... which was that all AI races aren't the same. An AI race whose homeworld is a Type T world would be similar to organic Terran races in how they view other planet types, whereas an AI race from a Type G world would look at planetary environments similar to organic Gaseous races. Thus, what would be "benign" for a "Terran" AI race wouldn't be "benign" for a Gaseous AI race.

This is my interpretation of the Ultra rules on AI races, because there's nothing in the AI rules that would lead me to think otherwise. And to think otherwise (at least in a rules-based fashion, not in a "what should be" fashion") would require a reading of the rules that does not exist.



Also consider that given that natures of the various Unusual Races in Ultra, how a "robot" looks and functions to a Terran race may be massively different than a "robot" for an Ice race or a Venusian race. Thus, an AI race from a Type I planet would view all planet types similarly to how an organic Ice race would, for example.

Again, my end goal is variety in the game races, because little differences like "these guys ship their people all boxed up, while the hive over there stuffs 'em in like sardines!" are what make the game fun for me.

Variety isn't necessarily a "bad thing", though it can end up creating rules sets that are 375 pages long... And becomes too complex for some people (obviously not you).

[Crucis]

BTW, while the use of Artificial Intelligence instead of the classic Machine Race from GSF on is because thats how I put it in my suggested racial/government list, I've come to the conclusion that I like Machine Intelligence better. I think it better fits the proposed nature of the race better than either of the other two. The artificial part is, I think, what I dislike the most about my own suggestion that ended up part of the rules.

I have to admit that I like thinking of them as "Robot Races".

Personally, I don't think that it's really necessary to include "intelligence" in the phrase. I think that it can be rather easily assumed that any space-faring race is going to be "intelligent" (barring some sort of SFB-like space monsters).

There are some things that bother me about MR's (robot races, AI races, whatever)... and not in a totally bad way, just a mildly confused way... Rule Y3 is about government types. But the the "AI" race entry isn't a government type, it's a type of "race". Of course, I suppose that there may not really be any better place to put it.

Another thing. The AI race concept seems to be totally focused on a "race" that's really totally composed of robots as individuals, even in their warships, which require Q's, etc. But it seems to be that ought to be some alternative for an AI race where the starships aren't "crewed" per se, but rather are giant robots themselves. No, I'm not talking about giant walking transformer or power ranger like robots. I mean starships that are totally controlled by an AI central computer. There might still be robots on board, but not so much as crew members akin to human crews, but rather as just things like repair-bots, etc. that are simply mobile extensions of the central command computer. Now, depending on how one wanted to handle this, one could simply say that you needed a "normal" number of Q systems and that they represented central command computer. Or I suppose that one could allow the removal of the Q systems, but have some sort of "Comp" system and that you required a certain # of those Comp systems depending on the size of the ship being controlled.

Anyways, just some semi-random robot race related thoughts...

[Club]

Perhaps for AI races the Q systems are the massive mainframes needed to support them, the massive radiation shielding needed to protect them on a warship that Nuclear Weapons and Charged Particle Beams (E-beam) will be fired at, and the network infrastructure needed to control servo bots remotely.

Which brings up how many AI there would need to be on a warship. Could range from only one if the AI is the warship, to as many as would be needed for a human-equivalent ship.

Also, whether the AI would be made for the ship, or volunteer and be moved into the ship.

_____
in regards to the discussion about population emplacement - Perhaps saying that a AI race can only expand it's population by growth after it has gained a single planetary shipyard. That means 200 PU (220 PTU) or 100 PU and 50 IU.

[krenshala]

There are some things that bother me about MR's (robot races, AI races, whatever)... and not in a totally bad way, just a mildly confused way... Rule Y3 is about government types. But the the "AI" race entry isn't a government type, it's a type of "race". Of course, I suppose that there may not really be any better place to put it.

I had the same issue with the government table at first, as well. Then I thought of something: What kind of government bet fits the Hive Mind? The J'Rill? The Machines? While they might use a government style that is already listed in the rules, those types of races basically have their own style of governance that doesn't really fit into a "government type" because it is tied to the racial type. Once I thought of that, it stopped bothering me.

Another thing. The AI race concept seems to be totally focused on a "race" that's really totally composed of robots as individuals, even in their warships, which require Q's, etc. But it seems to be that ought to be some alternative for an AI race where the starships aren't "crewed" per se, but rather are giant robots themselves. No, I'm not talking about giant walking transformer or power ranger like robots. I mean starships that are totally controlled by an AI central computer. There might still be robots on board, but not so much as crew members akin to human crews, but rather as just things like repair-bots, etc. that are simply mobile extensions of the central command computer. Now, depending on how one wanted to handle this, one could simply say that you needed a "normal" number of Q systems and that they represented central command computer. Or I suppose that one could allow the removal of the Q systems, but have some sort of "Comp" system and that you required a certain # of those Comp systems depending on the size of the ship being controlled.

Anyways, just some semi-random robot race related thoughts...

To be honest, this is how I have always pictured the ships/bases for the Machines. I think that from a rules standpoint there is no need to change anything about the ship layout, though perhaps some flavor text stating that "for these guys, the Q systems aren't really life support, but are instead computer core/computer protection systems ... the equivalent of 'life support' for a computer/machine".