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Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan 2013 06:44
by AlexeiTimoshenko
Remember that we're talking effectively 3+ centuries in the future. I don't see a reason why an advanced race wouldn't have found a way to break down atoms into their constituent quarks, gluons, neutrino's etc and send a directed stream towards a target. The key is to make such a system small enough to fit on an IDEW. I would say that most of the space on a ship mounted system would be power generators/capacitors large enough to handle repeated firing in a short amount of time. For a drone/IDEW we're talking about single use so the capacitors should be much smaller. You would also need far less raw material (H/He or fissionable elements) for a single use weapon.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan 2013 08:01
by Dawn Falcon
Cralis wrote:the EMP would still play havoc with the accelerator, if not disable or destroy it outright.


Think about what you just said :)

Build a bomb designed to generate EMP, focus that. Presto, particle beam.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan 2013 14:59
by Cralis
Dawn Falcon wrote:
Cralis wrote:the EMP would still play havoc with the accelerator, if not disable or destroy it outright.


Think about what you just said :)

Build a bomb designed to generate EMP, focus that. Presto, particle beam.


EMP is not a particle... and a bomb does not make explode into convenient beams or rays.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan 2013 15:48
by Dawn Falcon
Cralis wrote:EMP is not a particle... and a bomb does not make explode into convenient beams or rays.


EMP is a burst of electromagnetic radiation...primarily gamma.

There are plenty of options, Vircators, EPFCG's...use a pinch field with one and you'll get a powerful directional pulse.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan 2013 19:18
by Cralis
Dawn Falcon wrote:
Cralis wrote:EMP is not a particle... and a bomb does not make explode into convenient beams or rays.


EMP is a burst of electromagnetic radiation...primarily gamma.

There are plenty of options, Vircators, EPFCG's...use a pinch field with one and you'll get a powerful directional pulse.


Right, agreed. We actually presume a similar concept for nuclear warheads in SSF. However, that is not a particle beam. At least, not as traditionally defined, as it does not use actual atomic or quantum particles (fermions or leptons...particles with mass).

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan 2013 21:06
by AlexeiTimoshenko
I've got a couple of ideas for how to describe a particle based weapon.

1) The weapon generates a sustained neutrino beam. Light weight particles that are easy to accelerate to near light speed.

2) A slug of degenerate matter, (white dwarf density held in a magnetic bottle) accelerated to c fractional velocity.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 03:33
by tmul4050
Actually I always thought a particle gun was a particle accelerator with a bad attitude. And the damage was just a powerful blast of radiation.

BTW why didn't the federation equip its units with those in the theban war. that would have ignored theban super armor and ended the war quicker. I know there is a counter but still the thebans r&d was already stressed. Energy guns (particle guns) would have made warp point defenses more realistic. In fact a capital energy cannon does equivelent damage the an xray laser, without the threat of blowing up their ships. It wouldn't have required research and could just be installed. It never made sense to me :? .

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 04:09
by Crucis
tmul4050 wrote:Actually I always thought a particle gun was a particle accelerator with a bad attitude. And the damage was just a powerful blast of radiation.

BTW why didn't the federation equip its units with those in the theban war. that would have ignored theban super armor and ended the war quicker. I know there is a counter but still the thebans r&d was already stressed. Energy guns (particle guns) would have made warp point defenses more realistic. In fact a capital energy cannon does equivelent damage the an xray laser, without the threat of blowing up their ships. It wouldn't have required research and could just be installed. It never made sense to me :? .


tmul, this is a point that I've seen made before, i.e. why didn't the Terranns use E-beams against the Thebans, given that Theban Shield tech was rather pedestrian, but its armor tech was leading edge. It's a very fair point, and I think that the simple answer is that it didn't occur to Dave Weber when he was writing CRUSADE. Of course, back in old unrevised 3E, E-beams or even their capital version didn't have nearly the range of Xray lasers or HET lasers, which could have been a contributing factor, I suppose. But in 3rdR, E-beams have better range, and would have synergized well with missiles and force beams to take down the weak Theban shields and then skipped right past the thick Theban armor.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 05:07
by tmul4050
Ah I see.
I guess it is hard to retcon a novel with later tech ideas, unless you rewrite it (whach I'm not asking). Well it is a good read.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 06:36
by AlexeiTimoshenko
You have to remember that in the fiction and back story, the Ophiuchi were the only race that focused on particle weaponry. I think that at least for the TFN and Khanate, they said "Neat trick, but we'll stick to our tractor derived weaponry" (unless it's changed IIRC F is a tractor operating on rapidly alternating polarities). Particle based weapons due run a slight risk of radiation exposure. That may also explain why the Gorm liked N based escorts (They were less concerned due to their higher radiation tolerance). Even at that, the Ophiuchi may have developed E as a result of their experience in Zhitmar (They may have observed such weapons in the automated defenses and developed their own).