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Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 08:02
by Crucis
tmul4050 wrote:Ah I see.
I guess it is hard to retcon a novel with later tech ideas, unless you rewrite it (whach I'm not asking). Well it is a good read.


Very true. The problem is that a lot of Starfire players don't realize that the Starfire novels were written from the perspective of unrevised 3E. Many of them came to Starfire as a result of the novels and their first exposure to the game was 3rdR, and they didn't realize what the differences between 3E and 3rdR really were. Hence, their confusion over why the Federation didn't use E-beams against the Thebans, when it seems like such an obvious thing to do.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 08:13
by tmul4050
Maybe you could insert a political reason.
Sometimes nations make foolish decisions for poitical aims. Maybe it was politically wrong to use the tech :|
(we cannot use the tech that harms our brave boys in uniform and comes from others. No we shall develop our own safe weapons without insideous alien hands etc etc...). And the politics were murky in the novel.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 10:07
by Vandervecken
A simpler and unfortunately just as realistic reason could be that there could be more money to be made by using weapon X in the industrial-war machine that weapon Y. Even though weapon Y would be a better fit versus enemy Z. Intelligence and wisdom often part ways at the appropriations committee when lobbyists can throw their bucks around.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 11:15
by Dawn Falcon
I asked a physicist (an astronomer, actually) about this. He said there are a lot of ways to generate particle beams from an explosion, but there's no real to predict which will scale - but it's viable, so handwave the mechanism.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 12:59
by Crucis
Vandervecken wrote:A simpler and unfortunately just as realistic reason could be that there could be more money to be made by using weapon X in the industrial-war machine that weapon Y. Even though weapon Y would be a better fit versus enemy Z. Intelligence and wisdom often part ways at the appropriations committee when lobbyists can throw their bucks around.


An interesting idea, though I'd think that one could argue that there could have also been money to be made trying to develop and build a next generation E-beam as well.

That said, in the novel, it seems that the push to develop laser weaponry came from the navy, specifically Admiral Antanov, not from the politicians (who were wondering why Antanov wasn't pushing forward with his perfectly good Force beam armed ships).

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 17:37
by AlexeiTimoshenko
Personally, I think that the TFN and Khanate never considered E beams until the Ophiuchi showed up, and by then they were more than satisfied with their F and P weaponry. Even when the TFN saw E beams, they didn't deploy them. The overload dampeners seen to have been installed in case the treaty negotiations went sour.

For an E beam to be effective against armor it's going to be using high energy sub atomic particles, as Alpha and Beta emissions would be stopped rather easily. A neutrino beam on the other hand would pass easily through armor with little effect and fry critical systems. Such hard radiation would be lethal in an accident. It would explain why some races were loathe to use it, while others (the Gorm with their higher tolerance) would see no reason not to refine the technology.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 18:15
by Dawn Falcon
...E-beams use electrons

Neutrino beams wouldn't DO much to normal matter, and they're electrically neutral anyway. They might be useful as a form of scanner in some cases...

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 18:30
by AlexeiTimoshenko
Dawn Falcon wrote:...E-beams use electrons

Neutrino beams wouldn't DO much to normal matter, and they're electrically neutral anyway. They might be useful as a form of scanner in some cases...


Electron (aka beta particles) shouldn't penetrate armor. If it's not penetrating how is it affecting internal systems.

With neutrinos, there might be power spikes if a bit in a computer gets flipped. You might not see much at the macro level, but polarity changes in electronics could have very negative effects.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 18:47
by Dawn Falcon
The E-beam system description explains that. It's basically an EMP weapon...it goes through armour precisely because it doesn't need to traditionally "penetrate".

And er, that's no real issue for a fault-tolerant military computer. You'd do better throwing (by hand) rocks, really. Even for massively powerful beams. They simply don't react with matter very much.

Re: WP Stagnation

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan 2013 19:07
by tmul4050
Thats odd my post didn't go on the board. :?

anyway
energy weapons (however they work) would have changed the theban war outcome in that the war would have been shorter (I think). The war itself is a good example of how to break WP deadlock. Have lots of new tech and be willing to lose lots and lots of ships.

Considering the casualties I wonder why Antonov did't just launch a simutaneous assault at loreli.