WP Stagnation

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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Dawn Falcon on Thu 27 Dec 2012 23:31

There need to be distinct limits, I think, on controlling missile pods. Sure, you can pre-program pod waves for an assault, and it doesn't matter if you need to do, oh, 25 per turn or whatever (but once they're set, they're going as and when you've told them to! Hope you didn't just waste several "follow up" waves of pods...). But when you're using them to stave off an attack? Um.

(IDEW are deliberately more simple, and short-ranged, which doesn't apply to missiles)
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Thu 27 Dec 2012 23:50

Dawn Falcon wrote:There need to be distinct limits, I think, on controlling missile pods. Sure, you can pre-program pod waves for an assault, and it doesn't matter if you need to do, oh, 25 per turn or whatever (but once they're set, they're going as and when you've told them to! Hope you didn't just waste several "follow up" waves of pods...). But when you're using them to stave off an attack? Um.

(IDEW are deliberately more simple, and short-ranged, which doesn't apply to missiles)



I agree that missile pods used in a defensive role can be a potentially serious problem. That said, I think that, like mines, the first part of the solution is to require the payment of maintenance on active pods (except for pods that are single use and get used in the month that they're activated).

This is the issue with armed buoys, drones, mines, and missile pods. They can provide a lot of bang for the buck. And if you don't pay any maintenance on them, and if they can remain active indefinitely, they screw up the balance of the game something fierce.

Using pods in a defensive role should probably be more difficult than their offensive role. Offensively, you know when you're going to send the pods into the WP and begin the bombardment, and you can program in your instructions. But in a defensive role, you can't leave pods active indefinitely, so you will have to activate them not unlike activating armed buoys.

And there should probably be some limits on controlling pods in a defensive role. Offensively, pods are under autonomous control operating under limited parameters. But defensively, it doesn't seem right to allow some base or ship to control pods as if they were additional weapons on said base or ship. I suppose that pods could operate like energy buoys in terms of targeting, and the limit of control over pods is in terms of activating certain numbers of pods and allowing them to follow their programming, but without any direct control over the targets beyond the original programming.


Missile pods should probably also have short endurances in terms of activation time before their missiles have to be launched or the pods are de-activated. It might also not hurt is missile pods were always single use items. I know that that goes against how the later generation pods were designed, but making them single use would seem to effectively increase their cost to some degree. (It would also use up some SYD capacity to replace them as well.)
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 28 Dec 2012 05:50

I would definitely make the early pods single use and require maintenance if deployed for more than a month. As far as control limits, I would say that a unit (ship, BS,SS) could control pods equal to the number of weapons that it mounts. Pods not under control of a ship would require 1 interception turn to be activated by a unit with available control channels. This would tend to put a limit on how many pods could effectively be deployed.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 28 Dec 2012 06:27

For Canon purposes, one reason I think that pods aren't seen earlier is due to treaty limitations between the Terrans and Khanate. Both could have developed immobile pods before ISW-2 but saw no sense in placing them in core systems due to the maintenance cost. Pods on the borders would have been prohibited by the Treaty of Tycho. That's also why pods weren't seen in GKW or ISW-3. By the time of Crusade, the research into mobile pods may have started, but at a very low level due to no new major warfare. Even the already developed stationary pods wouldn't have been deployed prior to the war, once again due to cost and treaty obligations. Once the Thebans attacked, there wouldn't have been time to get pods built and out to the front in time for Redwing, and Danzig not being a RDS wouldn't have had the information needed to start their own production prior to it being cut off.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Fri 28 Dec 2012 20:33

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:I would definitely make the early pods single use and require maintenance if deployed for more than a month. As far as control limits, I would say that a unit (ship, BS,SS) could control pods equal to the number of weapons that it mounts. Pods not under control of a ship would require 1 interception turn to be activated by a unit with available control channels. This would tend to put a limit on how many pods could effectively be deployed.


Actually, I was leaning more towards requiring the use of a system similar to the Mcs or Dcs systems. In Ultra, the similar system is called Apc or Automated Platform Control, and the Apc's generation defines how many buoys/drones it can control. In both 3e and Ultra, I think that these control systems are ridiculously large, and I'll probably opt for something a bit smaller. I like the idea of a merged automated weapons control system, rather than separate ones for mines, buoys, pods, and so forth. Furthermore, this sort of capability should be built into the CIC system, as it is in Ultra.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 28 Dec 2012 20:57

Crucis wrote:Actually, I was leaning more towards requiring the use of a system similar to the Mcs or Dcs systems. In Ultra, the similar system is called Apc or Automated Platform Control, and the Apc's generation defines how many buoys/drones it can control. In both 3e and Ultra, I think that these control systems are ridiculously large, and I'll probably opt for something a bit smaller. I like the idea of a merged automated weapons control system, rather than separate ones for mines, buoys, pods, and so forth. Furthermore, this sort of capability should be built into the CIC system, as it is in Ultra.


(Dcs) does seem large at 8 HS to control 100 patterns of IDEW. (Mcs) at 3 HS seems to be reasonable. BTW I see no actual usage of (Dcs)/(Mcs) in any of the scenarios in SaW where IDEW/MF are used. Building the capability into (CiC) would solve that problem.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Fri 28 Dec 2012 21:29

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:Actually, I was leaning more towards requiring the use of a system similar to the Mcs or Dcs systems. In Ultra, the similar system is called Apc or Automated Platform Control, and the Apc's generation defines how many buoys/drones it can control. In both 3e and Ultra, I think that these control systems are ridiculously large, and I'll probably opt for something a bit smaller. I like the idea of a merged automated weapons control system, rather than separate ones for mines, buoys, pods, and so forth. Furthermore, this sort of capability should be built into the CIC system, as it is in Ultra.


(Dcs) does seem large at 8 HS to control 100 patterns of IDEW. (Mcs) at 3 HS seems to be reasonable. BTW I see no actual usage of (Dcs)/(Mcs) in any of the scenarios in SaW where IDEW/MF are used. Building the capability into (CiC) would solve that problem.



Adding the capability to CIC is a way to make CIC matter more, because by itself, the initiative bonus of a CIC often isn't a strong enough reason to build CIC command ships for some people. Automated weapons control capabilities are a logical item to include in CIC.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 28 Dec 2012 21:40

Crucis wrote:Adding the capability to CIC is a way to make CIC matter more, because by itself, the initiative bonus of a CIC often isn't a strong enough reason to build CIC command ships for some people. Automated weapons control capabilities are a logical item to include in CIC.


I agree. A battle hardened fleet isn't going to be helped much by an initiative modifier from (CiC). I'n a defensive situation though the ability to control MF/IDEW?pods could come in handy.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Fri 28 Dec 2012 22:04

While it's not explicitly stated, it is remotely possible that the Khanate could have developed primitive immobile pods late in GKW. The use of pods could explain how First Fang Varnik'sheerino was able to stop the Gorm attack on Pandomn so easily. My theory is Khanate could have jury rigged a system based on mounting (XO) racks to a light weight skeleton. While the Gorm had (XO) racks, they wouldn't have had the time to adapt them into their own pods before the end of the war. During ISW-3 the Khanate may well have shared the idea with the TFN, but both would have decided not to let an attrition weapon system fall into the hands of the Rigellians.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Fri 28 Dec 2012 22:24

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:While it's not explicitly stated, it is remotely possible that the Khanate could have developed primitive immobile pods late in GKW. The use of pods could explain how First Fang Varnik'sheerino was able to stop the Gorm attack on Pandomn so easily. My theory is Khanate could have jury rigged a system based on mounting (XO) racks to a light weight skeleton. While the Gorm had (XO) racks, they wouldn't have had the time to adapt them into their own pods before the end of the war. During ISW-3 the Khanate may well have shared the idea with the TFN, but both would have decided not to let an attrition weapon system fall into the hands of the Rigellians.


Alexei, I'm really not particularly interested in missile buoys, which is what an immobile missile pod amounts to. Also, every piece of new tech doesn't need to be linked to the primary races of the Canon History.

When I eventually get Cosmic done, it won't be focusing on those races, but on the Star Union, the Zarkolyans, the Pitariad, as well as a number of new races and empires yet to be encountered. And some of those races/empires will have developed some tech that wasn't imagined the Terrans, Orions, etc.
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