WP Stagnation

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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 29 Dec 2012 06:50

I'm not trying to advocate for or against buoys. What I am doing at least in fiction is looking at how pods developed. To me it doesn't make much sense that a fairly mature system shows up at HT9. Yes the missile part is there, but the delivery system is novel.

Think of it this way. Most races had lasers but quickly abandoned them once force beams were developed. The Thebans didn't have access to force beams so continued to improve their lasers. Most races have missiles of some sort. Imagine a race that jury rigs an independent missile delivery system. The original system is large cumbersome and immobile. Give them a century to improve on the concept and you have a pod. The primitive buoys would most likely be forgotten.

The other path a race might take is to miniaturize the entire system and go with a very short range delivery system and now you get a mine. The TFN didn't have (XO) racks in ISW-1 or 2. They may have tried to develop an independent missile delivery system but abandon the concept due to the size and cost and shifted to the much smaller mines (I can see Howard Anderson telling the research teams that he needs something small, cheap and quickly deployable). The pod concept stayed in mothballs for a century until a wp capable missile delivery system was needed. (Again I can see Howard Anderson telling Angelique Timoshenko where and what to look for in the archives).
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 29 Dec 2012 08:26

Crucis wrote:When I eventually get Cosmic done, it won't be focusing on those races, but on the Star Union, the Zarkolyans, the Pitariad, as well as a number of new races and empires yet to be encountered. And some of those races/empires will have developed some tech that wasn't imagined the Terrans, Orions, etc.


I'm looking forward to seeing what new ideas the Star Union and its allies developed. I'm also looking forward to seeing their twists on more familiar tech. The Zarkolyan Wb concept is a prime example.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Sat 29 Dec 2012 21:11

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:When I eventually get Cosmic done, it won't be focusing on those races, but on the Star Union, the Zarkolyans, the Pitariad, as well as a number of new races and empires yet to be encountered. And some of those races/empires will have developed some tech that wasn't imagined the Terrans, Orions, etc.


I'm looking forward to seeing what new ideas the Star Union and its allies developed. I'm also looking forward to seeing their twists on more familiar tech.


Ah, but that Pitariad is hardly a Star Union ally, and never will be one. The Pitari are the sworn enemies of the Star Union, from before ISW4. And after ISW4 the Pitari remain their sworn enemies. Unlike the Bugs which were more like an unthinking force of nature, the Pitari are sort of like the Orions to the Terrans in the early days, except that there's almost no chance that the Pitari will come around to liking the Star Union or anyone else. It's just not in their nature. One might think that this makes them like the Rigelians, but the Pitari aren't interested in genocide. They're interested in dominating everyone else, since they feel that they're the galaxy's superior race, and everyone is inferior. And the Star Union is the worst because Crucians didn't form the Star Union through conquering their inferiors, but by treating other races as equals. To the Pitari, this is utterly appalling and is the reason for their eternal enmity towards the Star Union, and the Crucians in particular.


The Zarkolyan Wb concept is a prime example.


Interesting that you should mention the Wb Box launcher system. The final version used in the ISW4 product is a bit different from the one in Dave Weber's manuscript. The DW version was a 1 HS system, not a 2 HS one. And it had to be reloaded much like an XO rack, with the DF down from the outside, not by limited internal feeds.

Arguably though, perhaps the Wb should be a much lower TL system. After all, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly high TL about a box launcher. It seems pretty much like XO racks turned into "silos" moved inside the hull. Also, I tend to think that 2 HS for a box launcher seems too high to me. I realize that it was probably increased from 1 to 2 out of game balance concerns, but 2 HS still seems too high for a box launcher that can mount only 3 csp of missiles.Crucis
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 29 Dec 2012 21:35

Crucis wrote:Ah, but that Pitariad is hardly a Star Union ally, and never will be one. The Pitari are the sworn enemies of the Star Union, from before ISW4. And after ISW4 the Pitari remain their sworn enemies. Unlike the Bugs which were more like an unthinking force of nature, the Pitari are sort of like the Orions to the Terrans in the early days, except that there's almost no chance that the Pitari will come around to liking the Star Union or anyone else. It's just not in their nature. One might think that this makes them like the Rigelians, but the Pitari aren't interested in genocide. They're interested in dominating everyone else, since they feel that they're the galaxy's superior race, and everyone is inferior. And the Star Union is the worst because Crucians didn't form the Star Union through conquering their inferiors, but by treating other races as equals. To the Pitari, this is utterly appalling and is the reason for their eternal enmity towards the Star Union, and the Crucians in particular.


Sounds a bit like the Tangri at least in outlook.

Crucis wrote:Interesting that you should mention the Wb Box launcher system. The final version used in the ISW4 product is a bit different from the one in Dave Weber's manuscript. The DW version was a 1 HS system, not a 2 HS one. And it had to be reloaded much like an XO rack, with the DF down from the outside, not by limited internal feeds.

Arguably though, perhaps the Wb should be a much lower TL system. After all, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly high TL about a box launcher. It seems pretty much like XO racks turned into "silos" moved inside the hull. Also, I tend to think that 2 HS for a box launcher seems too high to me. I realize that it was probably increased from 1 to 2 out of game balance concerns, but 2 HS still seems too high for a box launcher that can mount only 3 csp of missiles.Crucis


The 1 HS version seems to fit the fiction better. I agree that they should be somewhat lower in TL as there doesn't seem to be anything radical in the design. The entire concept seems based around SM's. Given the size could a Wb house a single (CAM)? I know that the original could only be mounted on (XO) racks as it was too large for a Rc.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Sat 29 Dec 2012 22:09

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:Ah, but that Pitariad is hardly a Star Union ally, and never will be one. The Pitari are the sworn enemies of the Star Union, from before ISW4. And after ISW4 the Pitari remain their sworn enemies. Unlike the Bugs which were more like an unthinking force of nature, the Pitari are sort of like the Orions to the Terrans in the early days, except that there's almost no chance that the Pitari will come around to liking the Star Union or anyone else. It's just not in their nature. One might think that this makes them like the Rigelians, but the Pitari aren't interested in genocide. They're interested in dominating everyone else, since they feel that they're the galaxy's superior race, and everyone is inferior. And the Star Union is the worst because Crucians didn't form the Star Union through conquering their inferiors, but by treating other races as equals. To the Pitari, this is utterly appalling and is the reason for their eternal enmity towards the Star Union, and the Crucians in particular.


Sounds a bit like the Tangri at least in outlook.


The difference is that the Tangri don't see other races as intelligent. The Pitari do see other races as intelligent. They just feel that they're the supreme race in the Galaxy, fated to rule over their inferiors. ( It's a convenient way to have a bad guy race that's not looking to nuke or eat everyone else... ;) )

Crucis wrote:Interesting that you should mention the Wb Box launcher system. The final version used in the ISW4 product is a bit different from the one in Dave Weber's manuscript. The DW version was a 1 HS system, not a 2 HS one. And it had to be reloaded much like an XO rack, with the DF down from the outside, not by limited internal feeds.

Arguably though, perhaps the Wb should be a much lower TL system. After all, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly high TL about a box launcher. It seems pretty much like XO racks turned into "silos" moved inside the hull. Also, I tend to think that 2 HS for a box launcher seems too high to me. I realize that it was probably increased from 1 to 2 out of game balance concerns, but 2 HS still seems too high for a box launcher that can mount only 3 csp of missiles.Crucis


The 1 HS version seems to fit the fiction better. I agree that they should be somewhat lower in TL as there doesn't seem to be anything radical in the design. The entire concept seems based around SM's. Given the size could a Wb house a single (CAM)? I know that the original could only be mounted on (XO) racks as it was too large for a Rc.



"The Shiva Option" was indeed written with the original DW 1 HS, external reload version in mind.

As for launching CAM1's from Wb, it'd be sort of a waste, whether it mounted a nuke or an AM warhead, since you'd get more bang for the space from SM's in sprint mode. Zarkolyan ships pack with Wb launchers are sort of like huge missile pods. They can flush out an enormous volley of missiles. And in ISW4, they were particularly useful for blowing away huge numbers of Bug gunboats in a hurry. Wb-armed ships are great for WP assaults, because they can fire a large volley then turn around and escape back thru the WP. Under the original Wb rules, you probably wouldn't see those ships again in the same battle, since reloading was so slow. With the officially released version of Wb, reloading was internal and vastly faster at 1 csp per turn, IIRC. So seeing a Wb ship again was quite likely.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 29 Dec 2012 22:45

Crucis wrote:The difference is that the Tangri don't see other races as intelligent. The Pitari do see other races as intelligent. They just feel that they're the supreme race in the Galaxy, fated to rule over their inferiors. ( It's a convenient way to have a bad guy race that's not looking to nuke or eat everyone else... )


That sounds a bit like Imperial Japan. They felt that they were superior to Western and even other Asian societies.

Crucis wrote:As for launching CAM1's from Wb, it'd be sort of a waste, whether it mounted a nuke or an AM warhead, since you'd get more bang for the space from SM's in sprint mode. Zarkolyan ships pack with Wb launchers are sort of like huge missile pods. They can flush out an enormous volley of missiles. And in ISW4, they were particularly useful for blowing away huge numbers of Bug gunboats in a hurry. Wb-armed ships are great for WP assaults, because they can fire a large volley then turn around and escape back thru the WP. Under the original Wb rules, you probably wouldn't see those ships again in the same battle, since reloading was so slow. With the officially released version of Wb, reloading was internal and vastly faster at 1 csp per turn, IIRC. So seeing a Wb ship again was quite likely.


I see where I was confused. Given that the Wb is an externally loaded silo, I was thinking that they operated a bit like (XO) racks. SM can't be fired in sprint mode from (XO) while (CAM) can only be fired that way.

I could see ways to make use of the Wb for planetary assaults also. They are a great way to saturate point defense to chew up SS fast. Not bad for nuking npr's out of existence either.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Sun 30 Dec 2012 11:43

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:
Crucis wrote:The difference is that the Tangri don't see other races as intelligent. The Pitari do see other races as intelligent. They just feel that they're the supreme race in the Galaxy, fated to rule over their inferiors. ( It's a convenient way to have a bad guy race that's not looking to nuke or eat everyone else... )


That sounds a bit like Imperial Japan. They felt that they were superior to Western and even other Asian societies.


I suppose they do at that. Though I should say that Imperial Japan wasn't what I had in mind when I created the Pitari.

Crucis wrote:As for launching CAM1's from Wb, it'd be sort of a waste, whether it mounted a nuke or an AM warhead, since you'd get more bang for the space from SM's in sprint mode. Zarkolyan ships pack with Wb launchers are sort of like huge missile pods. They can flush out an enormous volley of missiles. And in ISW4, they were particularly useful for blowing away huge numbers of Bug gunboats in a hurry. Wb-armed ships are great for WP assaults, because they can fire a large volley then turn around and escape back thru the WP. Under the original Wb rules, you probably wouldn't see those ships again in the same battle, since reloading was so slow. With the officially released version of Wb, reloading was internal and vastly faster at 1 csp per turn, IIRC. So seeing a Wb ship again was quite likely.


I see where I was confused. Given that the Wb is an externally loaded silo, I was thinking that they operated a bit like (XO) racks. SM can't be fired in sprint mode from (XO) while (CAM) can only be fired that way.

I could see ways to make use of the Wb for planetary assaults also. They are a great way to saturate point defense to chew up SS fast. Not bad for nuking npr's out of existence either.


Not bad for PDC's either. ;)
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sun 30 Dec 2012 17:37

I can see a race being in for a surprise when a seemingly innocuous squadron of CT's with 8-9 Wb's each comes through a wp and blows the defenses to dust bunnies.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby Crucis on Sun 30 Dec 2012 19:10

AlexeiTimoshenko wrote:I can see a race being in for a surprise when a seemingly innocuous squadron of CT's with 8-9 Wb's each comes through a wp and blows the defenses to dust bunnies.


Well, that'd be true if one was talking about 1 HS box launchers that could ripple launch their entire load of missiles. And it'd be much worse if those CT's were datalinked. Combining ripple-launching box launchers with datalink at low TL's seems rather unbalanced to me. I'm not sure that anything other than a PDC or a SS (or a AF) could survive those massive volleys.

I tend to think that were box launchers to be pushed down to low TL's they'd have to be significantly modified to not be unbalancing. Perhaps no ripple launching. Very slow, external reloading. Maybe something like a 2 HS launcher system with around 5 csp of on-mount missile storage, but could only launch a single SM-sized missile per turn, but with similar penalties to XO racks (negative modifiers to range and to-hit rolls). Something that could make the launcher attractive to small ships at very low TL's, but not very attractive to larger ships that need staying power and much more significant magazine capacities.
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Re: WP Stagnation

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sun 30 Dec 2012 19:41

Crucis wrote:I tend to think that were box launchers to be pushed down to low TL's they'd have to be significantly modified to not be unbalancing. Perhaps no ripple launching. Very slow, external reloading. Maybe something like a 2 HS launcher system with around 5 csp of on-mount missile storage, but could only launch a single SM-sized missile per turn, but with similar penalties to XO racks (negative modifiers to range and to-hit rolls). Something that could make the launcher attractive to small ships at very low TL's, but not very attractive to larger ships that need staying power and much more significant magazine capacities.


I agree with the (XO) rack type penalties and not ripple firing them (at least in a low TL version) My preference though would be to stay with a 1 HS 3 csp version though. Think of it this way. Standard W's are 3 HS. A CT can mount 2 with a Mg and fire 2 shots per turn for an extended amount of time. The same CT with 3 2 HS Wb's will get off 3 shots for 5 turns and be out of the battle. Even with datalink (expensive for such units) that's 9 shots per turn. With a 1 HS version each ship could launch 6 SM per turn which would lessen the need for datalink on such specialized attrition units.
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