Anatomically correct Sol system project.

General Starfire discussion, including information about old products and editions.

Moderators: SDS Members, SDS Owner

Forum rules
1. Nothing obscene.
2. No advertising or spamming.
3. No personal information. Mostly aimed at the posting of OTHER people's information.
4. No flame wars. We encourage debate, but it becomes a flame when insults fly and tempers flare.

Try to stick with the forum's topic. Threads that belong to another forum will be moved to that forum.

Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Tue 29 Oct 2019 12:39

I KNOW I read somewhere on these forums, that someone was working on such a project already, and was wondering if they are still here and if they have such information available to share?

What I am looking for is to basically map out our entire solar system, on a starfire-esce map. Given that, at least as I understand it today, Earth is 1 AU from the sun.

Wiki defines this currently as:
1 astronomical unit = 149597870700 metres (exactly)
92,955,807 million miles
≈ 499.00478384 light-seconds
≈ 4.8481368 millionths (4.8481368×10−6) of a parsec
≈ 15.812507 millionths (15.812507×10−6) of a light-year


Wiki also defines the speed of light as:
The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its exact value is 299792458 metres per second (approximately 300000 km/s (186,000 miles/second)


So using these and the current starfire scale of 1 tactical hex = 1/4 of a light second (LS), I am going to try to define our solar system in these terms, and get travel time from point to point. I'm no Astrophysicist, nor an Astronomer, but just the 'common man' making a good faith attempt to make sense of distances that just boggle my mind.

To invite others to share, can someone tell me all the different scales in current use within Solar Starfire rules? IIRC, .25 LS should come out to 46,500 miles? If these numbers are correct (and lets face it, new technologies may more accurately define these approximate values), then we could express earth's distance from the sun as ~ 2,000 some odd tactical hexes distant?

Now, how far is the moon?

Wiki says:
SI base unit 384402×103 m
Metric system 384402 km
English units 238,856 mi
So in Starfire tactical hexes, that comes out close to 5 hexes distant, or thereabouts?

My next project would be to try and get a handle on all the various NEO out there, and how they fit into the bigger picture, both in real life and in game.

As there are far too many of these for me to attempt to work with, here are the closest approaches, for today, 29th October, 2019.
Taken from;
https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov/ca/


Object Close-Approach (CA) Date CA Distance
Nominal (LD | au) CA Distance
Minimum (LD | au) V relative
(km/s) V infinity
(km/s) H
(mag) Estimated Diameter
(2019 UC) 2019-Oct-29 01:29 ± < 00:01 2.91 | 0.00749 2.91 | 0.00749 8.94 8.90 24.2 38 m - 86 m
(2019 TR2) 2019-Oct-29 03:27 ± < 00:01 19.30 | 0.04959 19.28 | 0.04954 13.82 13.81 23.4 56 m - 120 m
(2019 UB8) 2019-Oct-29 06:30 ± < 00:01 0.50 | 0.00127 0.49 | 0.00127 10.58 10.38 28.9 4.3 m - 9.7 m
(2019 UL5) 2019-Oct-29 11:50 ± < 00:01 3.87 | 0.00995 3.87 | 0.00994 5.35 5.30 27.6 7.9 m - 18 m
(2019 UT8) 2019-Oct-29 21:42 ± < 00:01 2.77 | 0.00711 2.75 | 0.00708 15.74 15.71 27.1 9.9 m - 22 m
(2019 UB2) 2019-Oct-29 22:20 ± < 00:01 15.09 | 0.03878 14.92 | 0.03833 8.38 8.37 25.8 18 m - 40 m
Looking at the bad way this is displayed with forum software/my inept posting skills, it is kinda hard to make things out, so I'll later post an image of a table that is much better able to be understood than the above. For now though, we can see that the highlighted object, that came whizzing by at about 6:30 AM this morning, was somewhere between 4.3 to 9.7 meters in diameter. Looking at the NASA site, it looks like we had 6 visitors today, and while this one got the closest, it was also the smallest.

Anyone want to attempt the math of an impact event? Size is between 4.3 and 9.7, so lets split the difference and call it an even 7 meters in diameter, traveling at (again, IIUC) a relative speed of 10.58 kilometers per second. As I hate metric, lets just call it a flat ~6.5 miles per second, and for density, lets compute it with the following compositions (I have no idea what the heck it is made of, so this is just pure speculation on my part) Pure: lead, granite, gold, zinc. How much damage, in real life terms would these four cases result in? How about in SF game terms?

Alternatively, how much would these four cases be worth, in real life terms, if we had the capability to match velocities, and mine them completely? What would that be in SF game terms?

For comparison...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater

IIRC, NASA says there are millions of NEO's.

That we KNOW of.

Grave danger, or an incredible source of wealth?

End of first post.
Last edited by voidstalker[woe] on Wed 30 Oct 2019 15:19, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby Cralis on Tue 29 Oct 2019 15:18

Remember that the system level is measured in System Hexes, which are 12 LM across. Going down to tH is really unnecessary because it requires a lot of math to tell you it will take a long time to get anywhere. That’s why there is a system scale.
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 11410
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Tue 29 Oct 2019 16:07

Cralis wrote:Remember that the system level is measured in System Hexes, which are 12 LM across. Going down to tH is really unnecessary because it requires a lot of math to tell you it will take a long time to get anywhere. That’s why there is a system scale.
Thanks Cralis. I have to admit that I no longer remembered that. I knew there was at least one other scale (and thought that at one time or another there was more than that???) in use, but didn't remember what that was.

So 1 System Hex (12LM) would be how many tactical hexs? 12x60x4 or 2880? On that scale, the Earth would be slightly less than one full System hex from Sol, and Mercury & Venus couldn't even come close to being represented accurately and to scale. So that will be one area that I have to fix, in that I want separate scales that allow me to accurately display the inner planets orbits, then another separate and larger scale that allows for the gas giants to be displayed, and then 1 or perhaps 2 additional larger scales, to show;

The TNO's; Kuiper belt https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/solar-syst ... /overview/,
and
Oort cloud; https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/solar-syst ... /overview/

So, I know that no one scale is going to work for what I want to achieve, as either I would need an impossibly big map, or I would have to leave out detail.

I know Pluto to be something on the order of 40 times as distant from the sun as is the Earth, and using System hexes alone would allow the display to encompass the 3rd to 9th planets orbits. The problem with this for me is, it doesn't show 1st and 2nd planets orbits at all, and ends right at the near edge of the TNO, and completely leaves off the entirety of all that lies beyond.

I'll probably work on the scale needed to layout the inner planets first, before moving on to the scale needed to show the 4 gas giants properly.

Right now, I am contemplating the following conventions with respect to map scales. Set up an {Inner} solar system map scale [level 1], with the outer edge being at or near the AB, so that I can hopefully get a good anatomically correct model of the inner planets in a reasonably accurate layout, and then follow this up with an {Outer} solar system map scale [level 2] with the AB set up at one hex from the sun, and hopefully be able to get up to Neptune at or near the outer edge. Once beyond the orbits of the planets, we then enter the inner debris zone [level 3] which I'm tentatively setting Neptune to a 1 hex orbit of the sun for scale. Finally, the outer debris field [level 4] whose first hex should be the outer edge of the Kuiper Belt, and outer edge should be the outer edge of the Oort cloud.

Mind you, I have not looked at putting these orbits on paper yet, so such initial thoughts may or may not, play out.

I hope not to have to use more then the 4 posited map scales in order to accurately display our solar system, or at least as much of it as we currently know about.

I have many plans, and all of them are dependant upon having a proper set of tools to make displaying our actual solar system easy and fun. {Read as, future plans of scenarios played out upon some interesting scales/locations}.

End of post two.
Last edited by voidstalker[woe] on Wed 30 Oct 2019 15:19, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby Cralis on Tue 29 Oct 2019 19:06

I think the issue is that you want the planets to occupy the center of the System Hex that they are in. And that's not the case at the System Scale. Yes, all planets in orbits of 12 LM or less will be at System Hex range of "1", but that doesn't mean that they are all at exactly 6 LM - the center of the System Hex.

Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars will ALL be at a System Hex range of 1, but FRD:
Mercury is at 3 LM
Venus is at 6 LM
Earth is at 8 LM
and Mars is at 12 LM (actually 12.5, but close enough for Starfire)

There isn't any way to put an entire star system inside the 4' map without doing it this way. You're right. Doing it with any finer precision makes your map enormous and unwieldy.

What you do is when enemy units get close enough to detect each other, then you drop to the tactical map.
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 11410
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Tue 29 Oct 2019 23:16

Ok, so a short bit on what I hope to achieve here in this thread, and what I acknowledge as beyond the scope of what I am attempting.

1) I DO want to get several different scales defined so folks can layout our solar systems' main bodies in a way that makes seeing how far things are from the sun easy.
2) To do this, I have to limit myself to a static display, upon a flat surface.
3) These limitations are not something I can overcome, and will force me to accept not being able to model a working set of orbital motions, rotational periods, axial tilts, nor even changing relative positions.
4) This will render this work all but useless for teaching astronomy.
5) This will allow for an in game display of an anatomically correct (static) map of our solar system, for game purposes.

So, with the above stated, lets look at what this means. Because I cannot show any motions, all orbits are shown as circular, and at the best average distance to the sun I can get. This is in no way representative of our actual planets motions, but for game usage, is good enough till we get a computer version.

Onto the data then.

How far is Mercury from the sun?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(planet)#Orbit,_rotation,_and_longitude
The real Mercury orbital path causes the distance to vary from about 29 million miles on closest approach, to about 43 million miles at most distant point. Splitting the difference gives us 36,000,000 miles, for a nice, clean, fictional circular orbit. Other interesting data about Mercury: 3,031.9 mile diameter, and a Surface area of .147 earths, and a local gravity of .38 G. I plan to revisit these facts in later threads.

How far is Venus from the sun? To keep things simple (No, really) I'm just going with the values I'll be using in game terms, once I get everything figured out and converted, and then I can go about deciding on the best scale for the [level 1] map. 67,000,000 miles seems to be the best answer here, as we are going for a fictional circular orbit. Other interesting data about Venus: 7,520.8 mile diameter, a Surface area of .902 earths, and gravity of .91 G.

How far is Earth from the sun? Average orbital distance 92,960,000 miles. Earth has diameter of 7,917.5 miles, a Surface Area of 196,940,000 total miles, 57,510,000 of that as land, and of course 1 standard Gravity.

How far is Luna away from Terra? The average orbital distance of the Luna from Terra is 238,855 miles, and Luna has a 2,158.8 mile diameter, with a Surface Area of just .074 earths, and a mere .1654 G.

How far from the sun is Mars? Going with 141,600,000 miles from the sun, and with a diameter of about 4,220 miles, and with a SA of .284 earths and a gravity of .3794 G.

How far from the sun are the Asteroids? The AB is 2.2 to 3.2 AU from the sun. It also appears that it is 1 AU thick. Still have more reading to do on this. Looking forward, I'm thinking that a scale of one LM/hex for the inner Solar system might just do the trick.

Now, Cx60 should be just about 186,000 times 60, so that gives us 11,160,000 miles per light minute. Using this scale, that means 240 tactical hexes in each hex used to map out the inner solar system. When I plugged in the real distances given above for the 4 terrestrial planets and the Asteroid belt, the real size I came up with to display all that within a 30 hex radius, was just a tiny fraction bigger than 215 tactical/Inner system hex, but that seems a little bit more accurate (on an already very compromised map) for no gain, and complicates things a bit more than needed. I provide that here just for those that may want it.

So, if we go with the ratio of one LM/Inner system hex, let us see what that gives us.

Mercury is 36,000,000 miles, and using 3 LM gives us 33,480,000 miles, so we get to put Mercury just a tad past the middle of the third hex from the sun. This puts Mercury just a bit shy of 200 LS/800 tactical hexes from the sun in game terms.

Venus is 67,000,000 miles out, and using 6 LM gives us 66,960,000 miles, and so we get to put Venus a very tiny bit further out than the center of the 6th hex from the sun. This puts Venus very close to dead on 360 LS/1,440 tactical hexes from the sun in game terms.

Earth is 93,960,000 miles from the sun, and using 8 LM gives us a value of 89,290,000 miles. As I will round fractions normally, and given that adding another 5.5 million miles of so the the above would put us past Earth's orbit, we will get to put Earth almost to the edge of the 8th hex from the sun. This puts Earth where? remaining difference form center 8th hex to actual orbit = 3,670,000 miles, then divide by 186,000, which gives us a little less than 20 LS (50,000 miles less), so we can use a close approximation of just under 500 LS/2,000 tactical hexes from the sun.

The Asteroids are probably just best described as being 2.2 times to 3.2 times further out than the Earth. Working from the bottom up, we get something like 1,100 LS/4,400 tactical hexes out for the inner side of the belt, and something like 1,600 LS/6,400 tactical hexes out for the outer edge of the Asteroid belt. In terms of Inner System hexes, we can see the inner edge is something like 100 LS less than 20 LM out from the sun, so say 18 1/3 LM out for the leading edge, and the outer edge being something like 26 2/3 LM out from the sun.

Given that we are trying to make things easy, we can just round these off to 18/27 Inner system hexes and call it a day. This gives us about a 9 LM width for our Asteroid belt, but that is about all I can see different by using an Inner System hex scale of 1 LM/Hex.

Using that scale, to display the inner solar system on the 4 part, 30 hex radius map, we get a pretty fair approximation of an anatomically correct Inner Solar System.

When I started this thread/project, I had thought that I would need to have up to four different scales to properly display the entire system, but a convenient expedient offered itself up when I started looking at the orbits of the Gas and Ice Giants in the outer system. I haven't gotten it all figured out yet, but am currently thinking in terms of each Outer System Hex either using a 30 LM/OSH scale, or a 15 LM/OSH scale, depending on how they look once setup on the map.

End of post three.
Last edited by voidstalker[woe] on Wed 30 Oct 2019 15:18, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Tue 29 Oct 2019 23:21

Cralis wrote:I think the issue is that you want the planets to occupy the center of the System Hex that they are in. And that's not the case at the System Scale. Yes, all planets in orbits of 12 LM or less will be at System Hex range of "1", but that doesn't mean that they are all at exactly 6 LM - the center of the System Hex.

Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars will ALL be at a System Hex range of 1, but FRD:
Mercury is at 3 LM
Venus is at 6 LM
Earth is at 8 LM
and Mars is at 12 LM (actually 12.5, but close enough for Starfire)

There isn't any way to put an entire star system inside the 4' map without doing it this way. You're right. Doing it with any finer precision makes your map enormous and unwieldy.

What you do is when enemy units get close enough to detect each other, then you drop to the tactical map.
Sorry, didn't see this until I (finally) finished the previous post around 1:20am my time. What time is that for you, like 10:20 pm?
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby Cralis on Wed 30 Oct 2019 01:03

No worries, you just posted the data that I used to make my calculations :-)

At the time of this posting *BEEP* It is 12:03 AM PDT.
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 11410
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Wed 30 Oct 2019 16:19

The first three posts are up, and the inner system is looking good. Looking for thoughts on which scale to use for the Outer System Hexes (OSH). If we go with the 30 LM/OSH scale, the asteroids will all be in the 1st hex ring around Sol, and then Neptune (at about 30 AU) will be around the 10th hex out, leaving us plenty of room for Pluto and the rest of the Trans Neptunian Objects (TNO) of the Kuiper Belt. Pluto varies greatly in its orbital distance, from around 30 AU (Just inside of Neptune's orbit) to something around 50 AU.

With the scale of 30 LM hexes, and these will be something more than 3 AU's each, the outer system would be able to potentially display objects from distances of 3-90 AU's, and thus Pluto's outer most distant position would be well within the 30 hex map border.

As it turns out, the Oort cloud is thought to start about 1,000 + AU's distant from the sun, and extend beyond 100,000 AU's. If Pluto/Kuiper Belt can be shown on the Outer System Map, and then there is something like a 950 AU gap till the starting edge of the Oort cloud, I think that I will stop with the two map scales, and not worry about such distances until computer support is a thing, lol.

OTOH, if we were to go with a smaller scale, say 15 LM hex scale, then Pluto's outermost orbits would no longer be able to be shown, and the outer edge of the Kuiper Belt couldn't be plotted. The trade of would be a better mapping of the relative orbital distances of the 'big four' outer planets.

Anyone have any thoughts/input here at this stage?
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby Cralis on Wed 30 Oct 2019 20:19

Are you not going to use the System Hex scale already defined in the game? I stated it above already, at 12 LM per System Hex.
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 11410
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Anatomically correct Sol system project.

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Wed 30 Oct 2019 21:14

Cralis wrote:Are you not going to use the System Hex scale already defined in the game? I stated it above already, at 12 LM per System Hex.
No. I got the idea for this because of the limitations that a single scale has to impose upon a PnP map. I have some thoughts floating around in the back of my head, but I couldn't begin to describe them without first having a scale that would allow all the planets to be shown.

The other part of this project, further down the road, is going to be trying to develop maps for each of the giants and all their moons/rings. But that will have to wait for tomorrow, as I am not feeling well at the moment, and need food and sleep.
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Next

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests