Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

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Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby SCC on Wed 02 Aug 2017 04:00

OK, this only just occurred to me, but the treaties in Starfire are all bilateral only, you can't back trilateral or multilateral one's like you see in the books. How hard would it be to implement them?
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby Whitecold on Wed 02 Aug 2017 11:16

I think it should be quite easy if you allow players to write their own treaties. The only treaties that actually have gameplay effect are the trade treaties and amalgamation. The rest are obligations, so it is up to the individual empire if they honor the terms of the treaty.
I could imagine a variety of custom treaties, just what comes up at the top of my head:

Trade union: Members must sign free trade agreement with each member, no more than LT with anyone else.
Federation: All members are required to support any member at war, declarations of war may only be issued by majority vote.
Satellite states: Client states receive guarantees of protection, but may not conduct diplomacy of their own, and have to support their protector in times of war.
Forced free trade: Signee must pay percentage of the trade bonus to the other party, likely a treaty that has been forced in the aftermath of a war or under threat of overwhelming force.
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby Cralis on Fri 04 Aug 2017 01:18

I took a little bit of time to think about this and I think there's a little more to it. Really, a multilateral treaty is simply a treaty that has more than one signatory. And the success or failure of the treaty as a whole COULD depend upon the signatory of every empire involved. What I'd do is have some sort of metric to follow-up and depending upon how many empires fail to sign, any who have already signed may pull out.

Some treaties could easily be multilateral. For example, military alliances could easily have more than one signatory and all are bound to each other under the same arrangement. Failure to fulfill the obligations of such an alliance should cause a roll for EVERY alliance member to potentially leave the alliance. Non-intercourse, non-aggression pacts, etc. could all be multilateral.

Partnerships and amalgamations could not be multilateral. And the way we do trade in Starfire, we forbid trade triangles so any multilateral treaty would have to specify who is trading with whom, or everyone is trading only with the major partner, or something.

Now what WhiteCold is talking about is something a lot more than a multilateral treaty. He is talking about a semi-government or federal government framework under which signatories would sign up. I don't think there is anything wrong with those, but I think we'd have to approach each one differently.
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby Whitecold on Fri 04 Aug 2017 09:59

The treaties I described are a bit more involved, but that doesn't mean they cannot be used for simple multilateral treaties. That is the nice thing about leaving it open to the players, they can exactly write out what they want, and are not forced to pick from a list of options which may include stuff neither side wants.

As far as pulling out goes, for some it might make sense, for others it does not make any sense at all, and I don't see any way to determine this a simple chart what the proper foreign policy response is. I'm afraid codifying this will mostly introduce artifical stupidity for NPRs, instead of actually helping.
How do you quantify when a race will pull out of a fleet limitation treaty? It will definitely be different from a race not signing up on a defensive treaty, or a trade alliance. 4X computer opponents are prone to getting it completely wrong, doing it right in pen&paper seems like a stretch to me.
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby Cralis on Fri 04 Aug 2017 14:35

Whitecold wrote:The treaties I described are a bit more involved, but that doesn't mean they cannot be used for simple multilateral treaties. That is the nice thing about leaving it open to the players, they can exactly write out what they want, and are not forced to pick from a list of options which may include stuff neither side wants.


Oh absolutely true! I've seen treaties that includedno-man's land, military alliances with designated individual and shared patrol areas, and military treaties for war that defined how the spoils were to be split among participants in the alliance. This kind of detail is really only possible with players.

As far as pulling out goes, for some it might make sense, for others it does not make any sense at all, and I don't see any way to determine this a simple chart what the proper foreign policy response is. I'm afraid codifying this will mostly introduce artifical stupidity for NPRs, instead of actually helping.
How do you quantify when a race will pull out of a fleet limitation treaty? It will definitely be different from a race not signing up on a defensive treaty, or a trade alliance. 4X computer opponents are prone to getting it completely wrong, doing it right in pen&paper seems like a stretch to me.


What I meant was if you have 5 races contemplating a multilateral alliance, but two refuse to sign it, the remaining three (well two, really, since the last one is he who proposed it) should have a chance to recant and say "oh we were all for this as long as everyone agreed, but that didn't happen" ... or maybe they stay on and it's only thise three who make an alliance.

Depending upon treaty type, empire sizes, etc. should all be taken into account.
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby Dawn Falcon on Sat 19 Aug 2017 11:59

Cralis wrote:Partnerships and amalgamations could not be multilateral. And the way we do trade in Starfire, we forbid trade triangles so any multilateral treaty would have to specify who is trading with whom, or everyone is trading only with the major partner, or something.


I also have house rules for trade networks;

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=2597&p=30931&hilit=network#p30931

It uses bilateral treaties to create interweaving trade relationships.
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby SCC on Thu 15 Aug 2019 04:39

Cralis wrote:Partnerships and amalgamations could not be multilateral.
Amalgamations could be tricky because of the EVB (and resulting government type for NPR amalgamations), but I don't see why Partnerships would be so limited, and it would actually deal with some of the weirdness that happens when Partnerships are formed (the partner loses all their existing treaties)

Cralis wrote:And the way we do trade in Starfire, we forbid trade triangles so any multilateral treaty would have to specify who is trading with whom, or everyone is trading only with the major partner, or something.

Simple, you're trading with everyone. You report x% of your population, and gain the sum of everyone's x% bonuses, up to twice your x times number of partners.

Problem for both of these has to do with acceptance rolls, you might gain or advance a Graded Leader due to one of the acceptance rolls, and that could affect the other results, best way to handle it I can think of is to simply roll them in order of most to least likely to succeed and if one is successful in producing a leader it affects later ones.
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby Cralis on Thu 15 Aug 2019 11:54

SCC wrote:
Cralis wrote:Partnerships and amalgamations could not be multilateral.
Amalgamations could be tricky because of the EVB (and resulting government type for NPR amalgamations), but I don't see why Partnerships would be so limited, and it would actually deal with some of the weirdness that happens when Partnerships are formed (the partner loses all their existing treaties)


I think that you are thinking of Amalgamation. Partners don't drop their treaties with other empires when they become Partners.

Cralis wrote:And the way we do trade in Starfire, we forbid trade triangles so any multilateral treaty would have to specify who is trading with whom, or everyone is trading only with the major partner, or something.

Simple, you're trading with everyone. You report x% of your population, and gain the sum of everyone's x% bonuses, up to twice your x times number of partners.


We've discussed doing something like this...we called them "Trade Pools." But we haven't done it yet because it will require a complete overhaul of the trade rules (at least, the political part and the calculations for trade revenues) to make it work properly and fairly.

Problem for both of these has to do with acceptance rolls, you might gain or advance a Graded Leader due to one of the acceptance rolls, and that could affect the other results, best way to handle it I can think of is to simply roll them in order of most to least likely to succeed and if one is successful in producing a leader it affects later ones.


Normally if I have a real conflict, I determine the order in which they arrive by calculating the time it would take for the offer to leave the homeworld from the offering empire and reach the homeworld of the receiving empire. This takes a bit more calculation, but then you'd absolutely know the order in which the offers arrived.
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby SCC on Thu 15 Aug 2019 18:33

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:
Cralis wrote:Partnerships and amalgamations could not be multilateral.
Amalgamations could be tricky because of the EVB (and resulting government type for NPR amalgamations), but I don't see why Partnerships would be so limited, and it would actually deal with some of the weirdness that happens when Partnerships are formed (the partner loses all their existing treaties)


I think that you are thinking of Amalgamation. Partners don't drop their treaties with other empires when they become Partners.

Confusing it with T3.13.5 by the looks of things

Cralis wrote:And the way we do trade in Starfire, we forbid trade triangles so any multilateral treaty would have to specify who is trading with whom, or everyone is trading only with the major partner, or something.

Simple, you're trading with everyone. You report x% of your population, and gain the sum of everyone's x% bonuses, up to twice your x times number of partners.


We've discussed doing something like this...we called them "Trade Pools." But we haven't done it yet because it will require a complete overhaul of the trade rules (at least, the political part and the calculations for trade revenues) to make it work properly and fairly.[/quote]
I just gave you hopefully working rules covering this

Problem for both of these has to do with acceptance rolls, you might gain or advance a Graded Leader due to one of the acceptance rolls, and that could affect the other results, best way to handle it I can think of is to simply roll them in order of most to least likely to succeed and if one is successful in producing a leader it affects later ones.


Normally if I have a real conflict, I determine the order in which they arrive by calculating the time it would take for the offer to leave the homeworld from the offering empire and reach the homeworld of the receiving empire. This takes a bit more calculation, but then you'd absolutely know the order in which the offers arrived.[/quote]
I was thinking more of a round table set up, where everyone is talking to everyone else.
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Re: Trilateral and Multilateral Treaties

Postby Cralis on Fri 16 Aug 2019 13:34

SCC wrote:
Cralis wrote:)I think that you are thinking of Amalgamation. Partners don't drop their treaties with other empires when they become Partners.


Confusing it with T3.13.5 by the looks of things


Very possible. As written, that is just to keep players in check...

we called them "Trade Pools." But we haven't done it yet because it will require a complete overhaul of the trade rules (at least, the political part and the calculations for trade revenues) to make it work properly and fairly.


I just gave you hopefully working rules covering this


The Trade Pool concept is much more comprehensive and covers quite a bit more than multi-empire trade. It also introduces a bit of realism in the economic backend of how things work. The question is whether the result(s) is worth the complication.

I was thinking more of a round table set up, where everyone is talking to everyone else.


Right... true “multilateral” treaty negotiations. We don’t have that right now but I’d like to add that as part of the end game meta -governments like the Federation. Because those governments couldn’t exist without multilateral negotiations. So we will have to make that possible in some fashion.

I also thought of another concept we should exam: conditional treaty agreements. “I will accept your free trade offer if the empire XRZ over there accepts it first. Come back to us when that has been arranged!”
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