Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby SCC on Sun 17 Feb 2019 22:09

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:
Cralis wrote:Doing a “simple” generational swap (like changing Ia to Ib) is vastly simplified. In reality, such an upgrade is likely to be an incremental upgrade of a few of the sub-systems, not a complete swap of the entire drive system.

But “adding an extra engine”? As per the rules right now, that will be a Major Refit because you are going to be changing a non-drive system into a drive system. So in that case the rules already account for the massive changes.

1. You can play games with this by doing two refits.


I don't see how doing two Major Refits is advantageous over just doing one Major Refit... you will do a major refit to change non-drive HS to drive HS in the original drive type, and then do another when you change the drives to another drive type. It would be cheaper and easier to just do both at the same time.

Only one of them is a Major Refit. Take a DD with 5 Ia who wants to refit it to have 6 Ib, the first refit swaps the 5 existing Ia for Ib, this isn't a Major Refit. The second refit which adds a 6th engine is a Major Refit, but the total cost of all those refits is lower.

2. If your ship already had extra engines for some reason, like to allow it to run above cruising and not lose speed (OK) or in a Tug Engine Room (problematic) you never have to pay for a major re-fit.


Changing the drive type is still going to be a Major Refit, no matter what you do. And before you say "but Ic is a twig!" -- that's not going to matter in version 6.03. We are fixing that corner case. Even so, in the existing rules you will pay a Major Refit to change drive types for every other drive type except Ic.[/quote]
Take the above example, but change the DD to having 6 Ia, upgrading to Ib in not a Major Refit.

Cralis wrote:Those sub-systems are part of the hull. It takes a lot more than 1 HS to provide command systems, quarters, and ALL of the life support. The "Q" code is assumed to be only a portion of the entire system, which is distributed in the hull. It's there so it can be "destroyed" by destroying the "Q" code, as you don't have to destroy the entire thing to make it's functions relatively inoperable.

So why couldn't the number of Q systems you need be free as part of the unit?

Cralis wrote:Our presumptions are that an assault shuttle is about the size of a modern naval Destroyer. Remember, an entire Qt (at least one company of troops) and all of their gear, vehicles, munitions, and other supplies can fit into the hold of an ast. While we use that 1 HS roughly translates to something like 20m^3 or 30m^3 (I need to look at the notes to remember for sure, but the point is that it's not a small volume), the truth is that there is more ship than the listed HS because of the assumptions we've been using. The listed HS is the "available size" based on ship systems that you can purchase and install. The rest is assumed for simplicity.

It's a 20-meter cube, or 8,000m³ and that would actually probably be a lot for even a thousand troopers being airdropped.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby krenshala on Mon 18 Feb 2019 16:05

Q shouldn't be free as part of the hull, unless you want to remove the ability to knock out life support on the unit you are targeting. Having Q as an individual system allows you to knock out the life support.

Its like with H systems being required. Originally, they were not required at all, but you needed them to operate the unit outside CFN range (or brought a FT to haul the maintenance MCr for you). That morphed into "you have to have enough H to hold one months maintenance", and then (recently) was switched back to being optional, to allow for designs never meant to operate outside CFN range.

As for the assault shuttle, even if 2/3 of the volume was cargo space, remember that a Qt is the troops and all of its supplies and equipment, to include vehicles. Having done loading of military aircraft, I can tell you they don't pack all that densely, and are usually unloaded during transport (with its cargo loaded onto other pallets shipped next to it in the plane). And even if the vehicles were loaded, they would not be crewed, especially for a hot drop into a combat zone, which means you need cargo room for the people, cargo room for their gear (beans and bullets), and cargo room for their vehicles (which may or may not be loaded with gear, depending on your assumptions). That would eat up an H of space very quickly.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby Cralis on Mon 18 Feb 2019 21:09

SCC wrote:
Cralis wrote:I don't see how doing two Major Refits is advantageous over just doing one Major Refit... you will do a major refit to change non-drive HS to drive HS in the original drive type, and then do another when you change the drives to another drive type. It would be cheaper and easier to just do both at the same time.


Only one of them is a Major Refit. Take a DD with 5 Ia who wants to refit it to have 6 Ib, the first refit swaps the 5 existing Ia for Ib, this isn't a Major Refit. The second refit which adds a 6th engine is a Major Refit, but the total cost of all those refits is lower.


Ah... you are talking about incremental upgrades. I thought we were talking about changing drive types. Such as changing from Ia to Ja... or more specifically, changing from Ia to Ica. You are correct about incremental upgrades, although it's still cheaper to do the upgrade all at once because then you don't have to pay the refit cost twice for the same HS. Admittedly it's not a lot, but any self-respecting bureaucratic paper pusher in the imperial treasury department wouldn't let you make a mistake like that over such a waste of a couple MCr. :lol:

Cralis wrote:Those sub-systems are part of the hull. It takes a lot more than 1 HS to provide command systems, quarters, and ALL of the life support. The "Q" code is assumed to be only a portion of the entire system, which is distributed in the hull. It's there so it can be "destroyed" by destroying the "Q" code, as you don't have to destroy the entire thing to make it's functions relatively inoperable.

So why couldn't the number of Q systems you need be free as part of the unit?


For exactly the reason I gave, which has been underlined in my previous statement above: the code exists so your unit's life support and command structures can be destroyed by enemy weapons. The whole thing doesn't need to be destroyed, which would take a LOT more damage to destroy, but the critical portions are represented by the Q system code.

Cralis wrote:Our presumptions are that an assault shuttle is about the size of a modern naval Destroyer. Remember, an entire Qt (at least one company of troops) and all of their gear, vehicles, munitions, and other supplies can fit into the hold of an ast. While we use that 1 HS roughly translates to something like 20m^3 or 30m^3 (I need to look at the notes to remember for sure, but the point is that it's not a small volume), the truth is that there is more ship than the listed HS because of the assumptions we've been using. The listed HS is the "available size" based on ship systems that you can purchase and install. The rest is assumed for simplicity.


It's a 20-meter cube, or 8,000m³ and that would actually probably be a lot for even a thousand troopers being airdropped.


As I said in the previous statement, it's not just troops. It's all of their gear, support gear, supplies, and vehicles. Right now Qt are assumed to be multi-force structures that contain their own armor, aircraft, and artillery. In real-life that isn't necessary true, but that won't be represented until we do the section V upgrade in the NEXT version (v6.04) after the current update we are working on (v6.03)
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby SCC on Mon 18 Feb 2019 23:36

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:
Cralis wrote:I don't see how doing two Major Refits is advantageous over just doing one Major Refit... you will do a major refit to change non-drive HS to drive HS in the original drive type, and then do another when you change the drives to another drive type. It would be cheaper and easier to just do both at the same time.


Only one of them is a Major Refit. Take a DD with 5 Ia who wants to refit it to have 6 Ib, the first refit swaps the 5 existing Ia for Ib, this isn't a Major Refit. The second refit which adds a 6th engine is a Major Refit, but the total cost of all those refits is lower.


Ah... you are talking about incremental upgrades. I thought we were talking about changing drive types. Such as changing from Ia to Ja... or more specifically, changing from Ia to Ica. You are correct about incremental upgrades, although it's still cheaper to do the upgrade all at once because then you don't have to pay the refit cost twice for the same HS. Admittedly it's not a lot, but any self-respecting bureaucratic paper pusher in the imperial treasury department wouldn't let you make a mistake like that over such a waste of a couple MCr. :lol:

Why would some HS need to be refitted twice?

Cralis wrote:
Cralis wrote:Those sub-systems are part of the hull. It takes a lot more than 1 HS to provide command systems, quarters, and ALL of the life support. The "Q" code is assumed to be only a portion of the entire system, which is distributed in the hull. It's there so it can be "destroyed" by destroying the "Q" code, as you don't have to destroy the entire thing to make it's functions relatively inoperable.

So why couldn't the number of Q systems you need be free as part of the unit?


For exactly the reason I gave, which has been underlined in my previous statement above: the code exists so your unit's life support and command structures can be destroyed by enemy weapons. The whole thing doesn't need to be destroyed, which would take a LOT more damage to destroy, but the critical portions are represented by the Q system code.

The code Q would still exist, but it would come free with the ship.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby Cralis on Tue 19 Feb 2019 14:28

SCC wrote:Why would some HS need to be refitted twice?


You said it could be gamed with two refits; one to add an additional drive and one to change from Ia to Ib. That’s two refits.

The code Q would still exist, but it would come free with the ship.


The SDS has discussed doing this a few times, most recently when we removed the H requirement and allow units to automatically contain cargo space for 1 month’s worth of maintenance.

The biggest issues:

First, once again we are changing the available space on a unit. It’s not a lot, but it could mean more defenses or even an extra weapon on larger units. This is something we’d have to caerfully look at.

Second, is that we’d have to differentiate between the “free Q” and the extra Q you install on the unit for extra capacity. It is something we’ve talked about doing before. If it’s damageable then it would also be subject to precision fire. And should it alone represent the command center of the ship?

Third, if damageable it will add an additional HTK to swarm ships. Balance doesn’t really change if you go from 35 to 36 HTK. But from 5 HTK to 6? Over 113 ships of the swarm? It starts to matter.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby SCC on Tue 19 Feb 2019 23:21

Cralis wrote:
SCC wrote:Why would some HS need to be refitted twice?


You said it could be gamed with two refits; one to add an additional drive and one to change from Ia to Ib. That’s two refits.

Unless there's a rule I'm missing if I only refit one engine only the HS that engine occupies get dinged with refit costs.

Cralis wrote:
The code Q would still exist, but it would come free with the ship.


The SDS has discussed doing this a few times, most recently when we removed the H requirement and allow units to automatically contain cargo space for 1 month’s worth of maintenance.

The biggest issues:

First, once again we are changing the available space on a unit. It’s not a lot, but it could mean more defenses or even an extra weapon on larger units. This is something we’d have to caerfully look at.

Second, is that we’d have to differentiate between the “free Q” and the extra Q you install on the unit for extra capacity. It is something we’ve talked about doing before. If it’s damageable then it would also be subject to precision fire. And should it alone represent the command center of the ship?

Third, if damageable it will add an additional HTK to swarm ships. Balance doesn’t really change if you go from 35 to 36 HTK. But from 5 HTK to 6? Over 113 ships of the swarm? It starts to matter.

Should have made that clearer, there would still be the same number of Q per ship as there exists now.
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Re: Engines, Refitting, And Class Fees

Postby krenshala on Wed 20 Feb 2019 06:25

SCC wrote:Unless there's a rule I'm missing if I only refit one engine only the HS that engine occupies get dinged with refit costs.

That is still refitting the same hull space twice: once when you change engine generation, then again when you change engine type. You always have to pay for the hull space being changed.
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