How do you remember which ships turned?

General Starfire discussion, including information about old products and editions.

Moderators: SDS Members, SDS Owner

Forum rules
1. Nothing obscene.
2. No advertising or spamming.
3. No personal information. Mostly aimed at the posting of OTHER people's information.
4. No flame wars. We encourage debate, but it becomes a flame when insults fly and tempers flare.

Try to stick with the forum's topic. Threads that belong to another forum will be moved to that forum.

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby sandywhite90 on Tue 29 May 2018 19:27

I'm a handyman and accidentally found "tile spacers". They come in all sizes and some great shapes and I use them to identify units that have fired and such in many games. They are cheap and you get a bunch in the smallest of packs. I use the smaller thin "X"s and put them on stacs to note fired, and I'm sure you could find another shape or color to note turned.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4vUAAOSwnDxUq4fP/s-l300.jpg
sandywhite90
Midshipman 2nd Class
Midshipman 2nd Class
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun 29 Apr 2018 12:47

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby Cralis on Wed 30 May 2018 00:42

Oh interesting! I wonder if they are big enough and sturdy enough to separate counters in a stack with them?
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 11377
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby Skarn on Thu 31 May 2018 01:01

I haven't tried this myself yet (I'm still setting up the VTT for my first Starfire game in 20 years), but if you applied the movement notation from Nexus 2 p. 29 where it described simultaneous rather than pulsed movement for 1st Ed and used it to document movement for all of the ships in a battle (irregardless of the movement variant being used), that would give you specific records of when a ship last turned.
Skarn
Lieutenant JG
Lieutenant JG
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue 29 May 2018 00:28
Location: USA

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Sun 20 Oct 2019 17:46

Anyone still interested in this topic?

I just read it today, and need a day or two to cobble something together.
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Sun 20 Oct 2019 20:42

AAArrrggghhh!

Ok, so it didn't exactly sink in before, but I now realize that when the HDD went, it didn't take just my copy of Solar Starfire with it, it also took ALL my starfire flies and home rules and everything else with it too! This unfortunately includes all my excel sheets. NNNooooooo.....!!!

so I'll just describe a bit of my notion, and see if this actually helps someone that has good and current excel skills to implement a movement tracking system. I lost two SF players over problems with them not understanding how things were supposed to work, and me not realising that I was not successful in explaining things properly for them, until they started trying to do all sorts of illegal types of move/turn actions in game. :cry: :o :shock: :oops:

Reading this thread, gave me an idea on how to potentially correct this problem in a computer supported playing session.

Have a movement tracker, which is just a row of boxes, tied to each ship. Note starting position and facing, and if turn mode is met, or how many mp to go until the first course correction can occur.

In the first example, let's do a single ship vs ship encounter, for only the first turn.

Say the 'Crusher of Ribs' is a speed six ship with a turn mode of 3, so;

Crusher of Ribs class CA (3)-"Blahblahblah"-(6)

For our purposes, it's turn mode requirement is met at the start of turn one.

In the movement tracker, the string will be set to TM met = true.
We then input the actual movement of the ship, in symbol form.
Allowed symbols are:
L = turn to port
R = turn to starboard
F = straight ahead
S = spend in place
- = no movement point remaining.

So, that gives us this...

FFFLFFFR

This gives us the 6 movement points, and the two allowed facing changes. Ideally, the computer support will be able, from these inputs, to create the hex by hex movement of any and every ship for the log file.

The way to keep track of the TM requirements could be implemented in a number of ways, but needs to be a visual indicator that is shown in some fashion. In excel, you might do this with background colorization of the needed cells based upon {TM met} status being red when = false.

Here on the forum, I'll test out some ways to try to show this with tools available.

Let's try underlining, and assume that we will be either doing this with a piece of graph paper or some other PnP medium. Lets say that when a ships turn mode is met, that uses the regular entries, and when a ship turns, then we underline the following boxes immediately, to the number of entries needed to once again meet the requirements.

Also, so as to avoid confusion, perhaps we should use something to differeintate moves from turns? For here, on the forums, let us try upper and lower case, with the turn (The more important data) being in caps, so the movement log from above becomes;

fffLfffR

And when we implement the turn mode tracking, it would look like this;

fffL___

at the time the facing change is made. In this example, the underlining would be for 3 spaces because that is the turn mode for this particular ship, other ships would underling according to their individual turn mode requirements. in a computer program/excel sheet, colorization would probably be the method of choice, so for instance, the next three boxes would get a red background cell color, while all others would get green.

Continuing on;

fffLfff

would take us to the point where the turn mode is met, and another change of facing would be legal at this point, so keeping this going, let us say that a turn to starboard is desirable at this point, so;

fffLfffR___

Would be how the movement log for this ship would look at the end of turn one.

Harder to describe in text using a forum software, than to do in excel I imagine, but the idea is to get the point across. The idea is to have every movement point accounted for, in a continuous log, and tells a player at a glance if their ship is capable of a facing change at any given point.

So, using PnP, and performing a movement log for all ships, would just be a matter of entering the proper symbols for each ships actions. Naturally, I would prefer computer support myself, but hey.

Ant thoughts?
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Tue 22 Oct 2019 12:36

Also, I have to ask this. Is it just me, or do some players pose a greater challenge when it come to getting them to understand how things work than others? Of all the folks that I have introduced to starfire, only the two fellows I mentioned above ever failed to get how to move/turn.

Let me fact check something:

AIUI, the way all starfire movement works is that, when you come to a given ship, they first expend their movement point, by either moving forward into the hex they are facing, or they sit in place? ONLY after they have expended the current MP are they able to change facing, correct? Specifically, no ship can make a turn, and then spend a MP, it is always use your current MP, then change facing if desired and allowed. Is this correct?
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby Cralis on Fri 25 Oct 2019 01:09

voidstalker[woe] wrote:Also, I have to ask this. Is it just me, or do some players pose a greater challenge when it come to getting them to understand how things work than others? Of all the folks that I have introduced to starfire, only the two fellows I mentioned above ever failed to get how to move/turn.


I've found this to be the case with nearly every game I've ever taught. There are just some people who don't "get it" ... although sometimes I really wonder if they are simply refusing. I've had that too. An old SFB player who kept doing it wrong told me that he wasn't going to change and do move-turn because SFB was turn-move. I eventually just stopped playing with him because it was aggravating, especially knowing that he just refused.

Let me fact check something:

AIUI, the way all starfire movement works is that, when you come to a given ship, they first expend their movement point, by either moving forward into the hex they are facing, or they sit in place? ONLY after they have expended the current MP are they able to change facing, correct? Specifically, no ship can make a turn, and then spend a MP, it is always use your current MP, then change facing if desired and allowed. Is this correct?


C2 is the rule in Solar Starfire, but you are correct. You expend the Movement Point and THEN turn, if you have satisfied the unit's Turn Mode.
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 11377
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby voidstalker[woe] on Fri 25 Oct 2019 17:57

Cralis wrote:I've found this to be the case with nearly every game I've ever taught. There are just some people who don't "get it" ... although sometimes I really wonder if they are simply refusing. I've had that too. An old SFB player who kept doing it wrong told me that he wasn't going to change and do move-turn because SFB was turn-move. I eventually just stopped playing with him because it was aggravating, especially knowing that he just refused.

That might be a part of it in the case of one or both of my friends, as well, though I suspect that it is just partly that. Then again, about the time I was introduced to starfire, by one of my friends in the AD&D group, our DM was playing Star Fleet Battles, and perhaps my other friend got contaminated by those rules ideas. :roll:

Cralis wrote:C2 is the rule in Solar Starfire, but you are correct. You expend the Movement Point and THEN turn, if you have satisfied the unit's Turn Mode.
I'm still working on ideas to put together a small scale, low tech campaign, but this thread makes me wonder about some basics. Would it be a good idea, for a simpler, learning game, to just start off with ships cannot change speed, and HAVE to move at their maximum speed? Not something I would want as a gameplay rule, but maybe it could work in training?
User avatar
voidstalker[woe]
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2019 17:28
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby Cralis on Tue 29 Oct 2019 01:14

Honestly, if you are looking to teach players a very basic game I would start with the Quick Start Rules. You can download them from the forum, or you can download the "pretty version" from Wargame Vault at the following link:

https://www.wargamevault.com/product/213075/Quick-Start-Rules

These rules are simplified to about the same level as 2nd Edition Starfire, but they are based on the Solar Starfire rules and use the same basic technologies, terminology, and style. So they are really easy to learn and play. The version above combines all of the Quick Start Rules modules that we put out, with each set introducing a few new rules for new players to learn and scenarios to play them with.
Image
User avatar
Cralis
SDS Member
SDS Member
 
Posts: 11377
Joined: Tue 30 Jun 2009 19:27
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: How do you remember which ships turned?

Postby aramis on Wed 30 Oct 2019 18:18

voidstalker[woe] wrote:Also, I have to ask this. Is it just me, or do some players pose a greater challenge when it come to getting them to understand how things work than others? Of all the folks that I have introduced to starfire, only the two fellows I mentioned above ever failed to get how to move/turn.

I've known quite a few... but they all played SFB, and it's not specifically the issue of turn modes, but of procedure when applying the turn mode.

Starfire 3rd Ed is clear that it's move THEN turn, as were prior; I've not checked later.
SFB Commander's and Captain's editions are clear that it's turn then move on the impulse.
I expect Federation Commander players may suffer the same confusion.
aramis
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon 01 Mar 2010 00:42
Location: Eagle River, Alaska

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

cron